rule question on scoring above overpass

[meaubry]

Thanks jediptm for the clarification of G13
We have given some thought to the track ball passing over the overpass and believe that making contact with the overpass (actually rolling over it) is okay - as long as the ball continues to move forward once it brakes the plane of the finish line.
If the ball should not continue forward and instead come to rest in one of the openings - it would no longer be considered as passing over the over pass - and subsequently not get the points associated with hurdling.
It might however still qualify for the 12 points at the end of the match.

I'm sure the question will be asked on the FIRST site soon - and then we'll know for sure.

Mike

[EricRobodox]

Im a little bit confused here. Because if you can touch the ball while hurdling, would you still get the points if you threw the ball, it passed the over pass and the finish line, but then happens to bounce off you after you had crossed the line. I would think the rule was created so you have to let it hit the ground after the hurdle, or another robot; this way no robot can just continuously hold the trackball.

I just hope they notice that a lot of teams will hurdle the ball, drive forward, and then realize that the ball they threw is going to land on top of themselves, making the hurdle invalid, even though it is obvious their intention was not to catch the ball but merely cross the line.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by EricRobodox

I just hope they notice that a lot of teams will hurdle the ball, drive forward, and then realize that the ball they threw is going to land on top of themselves, making the hurdle invalid, even though it is obvious their intention was not to catch the ball but merely cross the line.

I believe you are correct. This would be invalid. I'd say that they are trying to prevent teams from catching their own ball and taking it around the track. Not much team work in that.

[ALIBI]

Originally Posted by meaubry

Thanks jediptm for the clarification of G13
We have given some thought to the track ball passing over the overpass and believe that making contact with the overpass (actually rolling over it) is okay - as long as the ball continues to move forward once it brakes the plane of the finish line.
If the ball should not continue forward and instead come to rest in one of the openings - it would no longer be considered as passing over the over pass - and subsequently not get the points associated with hurdling.
It might however still qualify for the 12 points at the end of the match.

I'm sure the question will be asked on the FIRST site soon - and then we'll know for sure.

Mike

Are you saying that if the ball comes to rest (for that matter even if it was moving/rolling all the time it could still break the plane) and the the bottom of the ball is slightly below the bar of the overpass it can no longer be considered as passing over because at one point part of the ball was technically below the plane (EDIT: horizontal) of the overpass?

In the definiiton of Hurdle it says that a hurlde is when the trackball crosses the alliance finish line, not break the plane of the finish line. In looking at the rules other places (E.g. G22 for one) where crossing is being used this year, it seems as though to cross something you must completely pass/cross the plane that something.

I have been under the impression that the score for a hurdle counts when the trackball goes completely past the finish line (all other conditions saticefied). I do not see in the rules where once it breaks the plane of the finish line it must continue (pass) in one motion to count.

I could see a strategy where a team would place the trackball on the overpass, and then without completely leaving the home stretch, reach under/around and grab the trackball from the other side, lower the arm/trackball close to the ground, drop the trackball for a second (8pts awarded now), grab the trackball and repeat (do a lap).

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by meaubry

Thanks jediptm for the clarification of G13
We have given some thought to the track ball passing over the overpass and believe that making contact with the overpass (actually rolling over it) is okay - as long as the ball continues to move forward once it brakes the plane of the finish line.
If the ball should not continue forward and instead come to rest in one of the openings - it would no longer be considered as passing over the over pass - and subsequently not get the points associated with hurdling.
It might however still qualify for the 12 points at the end of the match.

I'm sure the question will be asked on the FIRST site soon - and then we'll know for sure.

Mike

Originally Posted by ALIBI

Are you saying that if the ball comes to rest (for that matter even if it was moving/rolling all the time it could still break the plane) and the the bottom of the ball is slightly below the bar of the overpass it can no longer be considered as passing over because at one point part of the ball was technically below the plane (EDIT: horizontal) of the overpass?

In the definiiton of Hurdle it says that a hurlde is when the trackball crosses the alliance finish line, not break the plane of the finish line. In looking at the rules other places (E.g. G22 for one) where crossing is being used this year, it seems as though to cross something you must completely pass/cross the plane that something.

I have been under the impression that the score for a hurdle counts when the trackball goes completely past the finish line (all other conditions saticefied). I do not see in the rules where once it breaks the plane of the finish line it must continue (pass) in one motion to count.

I could see a strategy where a team would place the trackball on the overpass, and then without completely leaving the home stretch, reach under/around and grab the trackball from the other side, lower the arm/trackball close to the ground, drop the trackball for a second (8pts awarded now), grab the trackball and repeat (do a lap).

We need to go back to the definitions.

Originally Posted by Manual

HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

HURDLING: The act of completing a HURDLE. To be considered in the process of HURDLING, the ROBOT must:

• be in its own HOME STRETCH, and
• be in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, and
• be moving toward the OVERPASS and/or elevating the TRACKBALL so that the top of the TRACKBALL is higher than the LANE DIVIDER.

Since HURDLING is the act of completing a HURDLE, the 3 conditions in the list must be met. If the robot gives up possession during the process, by setting the ball on the overpass and then grabbing it again from the other side, it's not a HURDLE. If the robot sets the ball on the overpass and leaves it there for another robot to knock off, it's not a hurdle.

But that's just my opinion - it should be clarified once Q&A opens. Because this brings up another possible problem. Does possession have to be maintained until the ball is completely over the line?

[meaubry]

I guess clarification is needed relative to "passing above the overpass".

It doesn't say "above, without touching", and it doesn't say "over, without touching". It just says above the overpass.

I believe the use of "above" is meant to differentiate from the other means of scoring - "below" the overpass.

It all cases the ball must "cross" the finish line - meaning not stop, or partially cross the line - it means entirely cross the line.

What I was getting at is, assuming the ball can touch the overpass structure, the ball could momentarily get held up and settle in one of the openings instead of continuing to roll or bounce across the finish line (all in one motion). I was simply stating that in order to clearly define it, if the ball breaks the plane of the finish line and continues to move such that it crosses the finish line, I would assume it will be counted as "hurdling" the over pass. A ball that starts across and then doesn't make it all the way across before stopping or going in a different non-forward direction, would not have "crossed" the finish line - therefore, it would not be awarded "hurdling" points.

Again - this is just my opinion and I am anxiously waiting for clarification.
As I said, before - If someone asks, this will be officially explained in the Q&A by FIRST.

Mike