Defense, It's still here.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think this is a blatant violation of the intent of the rules.

Any way that the rules can be read to allow defense (pushing/interaction between one robot that is trying to stop another from getting to a certain location, or from doing a certain task) seems to be complete lawyerism to me.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ).

My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I would be very disappointed if teams took to subterfuge to attempt to play defense (ie: "bumping" to pass, by pushing a team halfway across the field, etc).

Not very long, Cory. But perhaps my response won't be as expected as you originally thought.

"Defense" cannot solely be defined this year by the extensive "pushing" interaction you describe. I do believe the GDC does not want to see robots being pushed "halfway across the field" this year. It would be akin to Tony Stewart sacrificing his car to remove an opponent from the race....not that Tony Stewart would ever do such a thing.... I would not qualify such an act as "subterfuge", either, for it should be pretty durned obvious to the referees if such an involuntary trip were occurring in front of their eyes! However, I also do not believe this was anywhere near the type of strategy Lucy was suggesting in her original post, and she and other defensive-minded individuals are entitled to this thread discussing its legality and merits, along with any other methods of defending which are brought up.

Personally, I'd certainly like to know the GDC's intent for robot interaction during the last second moments when a team is trying to put bonus balls up and another is trying to knock them down. At this point, there is no more hurdling - teams are "capping" - freezing their balls in mid hurdle, so to speak - so are their anti-defense liberties removed during these times? Is pushing in the bumper zone ok then? Is posting straight up to block capping attempts with your arm a legal manuever? And when one defending robot is actively herding an opponent's ball, playing keep away, how aggressive can the would-be offender be in trying to retrieve their scoring object? These are all seemingly legal strategies and reasonable questions - bumper zone interaction is explicitly allowed (whenever it isn't - ha) - what kind of contact does the GDC expect and approve of during such situations? I'll be looking for these to show up on the Q/A once the system opens up.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ).

I don't think anyone enjoys watching any robot get "bashed" in the most crippling of senses, whether the damage occurs by intent (unless you are the twisted transgressor), via ignorance of the rules, or via mistakes in judgement during the heat of competition. However, it seems you wish to suggest here that all forms of defense have this negative connotation. I think this does not respect those teams who on the whole work hard every year to play defense well and play it within the rules.

And yes, I DO think teams who build those "boxes on wheels" and play that D correctly very much enjoy it when their robot is able to do something productive on the field, especially when the "glitziest" of offensive game objectives may be out of their technical reach.

The offensively proficient certainly have had ample opportunities to shine and bring excitement to many an event even in the most defensive of recent seasons - 2004, 2006, and 2007. The FIRST community rightfully celebrates the accomplishments of those who have achieved such successes. I know (boy do I) how many of us believe it shouldn't be that hard for all FIRST teams to slap together some sort of rudimentary arm and off they go just because a drive base is simple and boring and they should challenge themselves to do more, but I believe the true reality is that some teams just don't have the experience, the time, the organization, or the money. They may very well have the desire, though, and seek only a little bit of assistance from those in the know to nudge them on their way toward technological improvement. Are we fortunate ones doing enough to facilitate their growth and advancement? Or would we prefer they just stay out of our way?

For those "lost" teams, I would hope we can still reserve a bit of room for praise and recognition of their achievements, relatively miniscule they may be to those of us who are used to so much more.

In 2008, I applaud the GDC in providing a much wider variety of both offensive and defensive options that are accessible to rookies and other teams who may not necessarily be as fortunate in the resource department as those of us who can be adept at scoring each year.

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. If you're pushing the robot you shouldn't be in contact with their trackball.

The entire robot must cross the vertical plane to have been considered as CROSSING the line as per definition of CROSSING:

CROSSING: The act of a TRACKBALL or ROBOT passing through the plane defined by a line (i.e.
LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE) when it is projected vertically upwards. A TRACKBALL or
ROBOT shall have CROSSED a line when all parts of the object, while traveling in a 
counterclockwise direction, have completely passed through the plane.

So, if a team is nudged so that just their front wheels go over the line, they can back up and re-align themselves. In most cases, teams trying to hurdle will be clotheslined by the overpass as a result of said "nudging", so they wont cross the finish line. Also, I have a feeling you'd have to hit a hurdling robot pretty hard for their entire robot to cross the finish line, resulting in a 10 point penalty.

Thanks. I never thought of it this way, now we know how to avoid this type of defense.

[chapmatr]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? This stops them from getting points, which is what I always understood defense to be.

Not sure if anyone else caught this, but the rules say that if the ball is knocked off of the overpass you get points. So it doesn't matter HOW they fall, so long as they do. I just want to say that defense will be much more difficult to manage than trying to score, so I'd recommend building a tough bot that can at least do laps.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by chapmatr

Not sure if anyone else caught this, but the rules say that if the ball is knocked off of the overpass you get points. So it doesn't matter HOW they fall, so long as they do.

Removing the ball from the overpass after the hybrid period is over does not score any points. It would be to an alliance's advantage to leave the opposing alliance's trackballs on the overpass until just before the end of the match, and remove them at the last possible moment in order to deprive the opponents of the <G14> bonus.

Originally Posted by <G09>

During the HYBRID PERIOD, each TRACKBALL that is removed from the OVERPASS (i.e. completely removed from its initial TARGET LOCATION and not in contact with any portions of the OVERPASS) at the end of the HYBRID PERIOD will earn 8 points.

Originally Posted by <G14>

When the MATCH ends, each TRACKBALL is at least partially supported by the OVERPASS and not in contact with any ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn a 12 point bonus.

[GMKlenklen]

it seems the GDC has replaced the "kitbot and bumbpers = ram" defence with something more like "kitbot and bumpers = racecar" "defence". In which you can only score points, and defensive oppertunities are also penalty opertunities.

it seems to me there are really 3 viable strategies for the teleoperated period:

run around the field

run around field with Trackball

hurdel Trackball

[Molten]

If in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, the ROBOT may “bump” the IMPEDING ROBOT with the TRACKBALL outside the BUMPER ZONE, providing the contact is made exclusively with the TRACKBALL.

Take note of this part of the G38 rule. I think that this shows that the original strategy of this thread is allowed. Even if it is not amongst bumper to bumper pushes. It should be allowed as long as they just use a trackball to do all of the pushing. It wouldn't be that hard to design a mechanism that would pick up the ball and hold it in front of itself in a sturdy fashion. With this, it could almost make the ball a part of itself. Of course, to do this for the entire match would cause your team mates to only have one trackball to score with so it is really a mute point. I just thought I would throw this idea out there among the masses and see what you can do with it.

Also, to all of you who believe that defense is unimportant. Just imagine a football team with no defense. Really that analogy works for any sport, football just happens to be a good example.

Finally, a humorous thought to part on. Just imagine if you were to fire that trackball as a projectile. They do not have restrictions on this like they did in the Aim High. Hard telling how fast you could get that ball to. I KNOW THIS DOES NOT GO WITH GP. I just thought it a funny picture to see a ball that size being launched at incredible speed and imagine the impact.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Molten

Finally, a humorous thought to part on. Just imagine if you were to fire that trackball as a projectile. They do not have restrictions on this like they did in the Aim High. Hard telling how fast you could get that ball to. I KNOW THIS DOES NOT GO WITH GP. I just thought it a funny picture to see a ball that size being launched at incredible speed and imagine the impact.

But along with GP, if one team is trying to hurdle while another team is trying to block them, is it really the first teams fault if the second team incurs damage (or tips over, which would be a real possibility) if they are successful at blocking the ball?

[Jethr0]

but, unfortunately you can only bump a robot if it is blocking the path of yours sooooo, bumping a hurdling robot only works if they are blocking you.