Defense, It's still here.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Zyik

The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

In the situation you pose, you say that the robot is not in the process of hurdling yet. I disagree. Let's look at the definition of hurdling:

Originally Posted by Section 7 Definitions

HURDLING: The act of completing a HURDLE. To be considered in the process of HURDLING, the ROBOT must:
• be in its own HOME STRETCH, and
• be in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, and
• be moving toward the OVERPASS and/or elevating the TRACKBALL so that the top of the TRACKBALL is higher than the LANE DIVIDER.

For clarity let's say your pushing my robot. I have possession of a ball and you have just pushed me over the lane marker into my home stretch. According to the definition of hurdling I'm now in the process of doing it. My robot satisfies all three of those conditions: I'm in the Home Stretch, I have a ball and I'm moving toward the overpass (maybe because you're pushing me, but it doesn't specify that).

Now, since my robot is in the process of hurdling, <G42> is in effect and the question is are you breaking <G42>? Is a steady push considered overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt? I don't know for sure. The push is not a signal to pass, nor is it incidental contact. I'd say it's something to be asked in the Q&A.

[Bongle]

Another defensive maneuver I saw posted yesterday:

Let's say your robot and an opposing robot are in your home stretch. The opposing robot is herding a trackball. If you bump the trackball out of your homestretch* into the previous quad (i.e. move the trackball clockwise), then you prevent them from hurdling for 8 points or herding for 2 points when they finish their current lap. They won't be able to score substantial herding or hurdling points for 6 quads of movement.

*This is legal so long as your robot itself does not cross the lane divider between your home stretch and their post-home-stretch. IIRC, you can still move clockwise within a quad, just not clockwise from quad to quad.

I'm happy about the no-defense type rules. In previous games, even those that included low cost-of-entry scoring methods like the low goals in Aim High, it was often much more profitable to abuse the opponents to prevent them from scoring than it was to attempt to do the low-point option. This game basically forces you to either be a clever defender (no pinning, no impeding, no bashing while hurdling, etc) or actually try and get points yourself. Rack 'n Roll was deathly boring because it was far, far, easier to build an effective defender than an effective offender. In Aim High, a well-designed offense robot could be effectively immune from defense since they could score from anywhere.

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by Bongle

Another defensive maneuver I saw posted yesterday:

Let's say your robot and an opposing robot are in your home stretch. The opposing robot is herding a trackball. If you bump the trackball out of your homestretch* into the previous quad (i.e. move the trackball clockwise), then you prevent them from hurdling for 8 points or herding for 2 points when they finish their current lap. They won't be able to score substantial herding or hurdling points for 6 quads of movement.

*This is legal so long as your robot itself does not cross the lane divider between your home stretch and their post-home-stretch. IIRC, you can still move clockwise within a quad, just not clockwise from quad to quad.

Those are my thoughts exactly.
Now, question is, maybe it is worth for you to just stay in their home strech zone the whole game and dont let them score. That is deffinately defence.

[Justin M.]

While going for a defensive strategy is possible, remember that the scoring may wind up evening it's way out. By putting one robot out of commission, you are also putting your own robot out of commission scoring wise. Even if you can't herd or hurdle trackballs, you can still get that 2 points for crossing your finish line. This leaves 2 other robots to still go and score. I don't believe committing to a defensive strategy will be as beneficial as it sounds right now.

In response to your strategy, the refs may declare your pushing to be an obstruction of traffic or unsportsmanlike. You can also cancel out by simply raising your arm/trackball above the overpass once you get into your homezone. That is at least ONE of the characteristics of hurdling and that protects you under <G42>.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I got a question.

Since they have removed the 6' height restriction in the opponents home stretch, does that mean teams can block hirdling attempts?

[Justin M.]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I got a question.

Since they have removed the 6' height restriction in the opponents home stretch, does that mean teams can block hirdling attempts?

It should have no effect on the hurdle protection rule. A hurdle attempt can only be done in your own homezone.

[jdejoannis]

Someone is in denial.

Lets face it, there is less defense this year. Last year, harassing a star scorer was quite worthwhile if you had a decent drivetrain.

<G42> is unequivocal about not harassing hurdlers.

<G29> prohibits POSSESSION of opponents trackballs. Therefore playing keepaway will be difficult.

The best chance is to herd opponents trackballs whenever the chance presents itself. Basically, give it a shove in the wrong direction whenever you see it. This is slim pickings. It remains to be seen how the judges will view deliberately moving in front of herding robot.

/Jason

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by jdejoannis

Someone is in denial.

Lets face it, there is less defense this year. Last year, harassing a star scorer was quite worthwhile if you had a decent drivetrain.

<G42> is unequivocal about not harassing hurdlers.

<G29> prohibits POSSESSION of opponents trackballs. Therefore playing keepaway will be difficult.

The best chance is to herd opponents trackballs whenever the chance presents itself. Basically, give it a shove in the wrong direction whenever you see it. This is slim pickings. It remains to be seen how the judges will view deliberately moving in front of herding robot.

/Jason

The definition of POSSESSION a trackball is quite clear, as well.

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is
supported or captured by an ALLIANCE shall be considered POSSESSION of the TRACKBALL. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “supported” by a ROBOT if in the estimation of a reasonably
astute observer the majority of the weight of the TRACKBALL is being borne by the ROBOT. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “captured” by a ROBOT if, as the ROBOT moves or changes
orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the TRACKBALL remains in approximately the same
position relative to the ROBOT. Both the “supported” and “captured” conditions include the case
where the TRACKBALL is also in contact with the floor.

So, if a team bumps a ball and it rolls away from them, they are considered HERDING and not in POSSESSION.

<G29> POSSESSING Opponent’s TRACKBALLS - ROBOTS may not be in the POSSESSION of a
TRACKBALL belonging to an opposing ALLIANCE. A PENALTY will be assigned for each
violation. HERDING of an opponent’s TRACKBALL and removing an opponent’s
TRACKBALL from the OVERPASS is permitted.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

Trust me, If you think that there will be no defense this year, you are mistaken.
THis game is designed so that defense is going to be played at the same time as offense. Robots the are just boxes on wheels are going to be effective and i figure that they will be able to make or break a match in qualifying. There are teams that will make a strategy to play defense and be VERY effective.

[Zyik]

Originally Posted by 65_Xero_Huskie

Trust me, If you think that there will be no defense this year, you are mistaken.
THis game is designed so that defense is going to be played at the same time as offense. Robots the are just boxes on wheels are going to be effective and i figure that they will be able to make or break a match in qualifying. There are teams that will make a strategy to play defense and be VERY effective.

Thankfully FIRST made it so that this year a box on wheels can still score. This should encourage rookie teams who don't have the know-how/experience/resources to build a more complex robot.

If you have a robot that takes a while to pick up a trackball an opposing robot, say... a box on wheels... could "bump to pass" just enough to make them have to realign themselves again, while the box on wheels keeps going around the track, scoring points. Hopefully the robot doesn't take to long to position them selves and grab the trackball or the box on wheels could keep this up the whole match, while scoring points for their alliance.

[Sunshine]

Defense now becomes much more challenging after Update 2

[IbleedPink233]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Defense now becomes much more challenging after Update 2

I don't see how it is harder, unless you planned on aggressively attacking your opponents' Trackball while they were Hurdling.

Our team has discussed defense and I think that the rules have been laid out to encourage teamwork (sharing balls with your allies) and discourage heavy defense (an improvement over last year, where slamming a robot into the Rack, often entangling it, was just fine - I never saw it called).
Defnitely, the defense this year will be way more creative this year than last year, where the push-the-robot-halfway-across-the-field-and-never-stop strategy was the one that was the only truely effective one (at least, the only widely used effective one).
In my brief experience as a base driver during off-seasons, it is way more fun to play effective defense than it is to score because it is a mental challenge between you and your opponent.
We will have to see how the game turns out - as it could be in any number of ways, but I definitely foresee a copious amount of defense (you have to have at least one ally without a Trackball do something) even if it is not really intense. A lot also rests in the hands of the Referees, of course.

[Spiders]

heres a semi-stupid question are you allowed to pick up the opposing teams ball and launch it backwards?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Spiders

heres a semi-stupid question are you allowed to pick up the opposing teams ball and launch it backwards?

That's possession, so no.

You may, however, simply knock it backwards.

[brentmcjunkin]

whoever said there is no defence this year is stupid there are actually some good defecive teams out there