Defense, It's still here.

[Zyik]

Many people have been complaining about the fact that "There's no defense this year." I don't believe this, every year there has been some way of playing defense. It's true there won't be as much of the same kind of defense as Rack-and-Roll or Aim High, but they were different games. One thing 973 can do well is defense so I've put a lot of thought into this.

Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? This stops them from getting points, which is what I always understood defense to be.

Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. If you're pushing the robot you shouldn't be in contact with their trackball.

This falls under

<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn 2 points.

An example of this: Lets say I have a typical six wheel kit bot and the "only" thing it can do is race around the track for points. Lets also say that one of the robots on the opposing side is a hurdling robot that operates via scissor lift and omni drive. (Nothing against scissor lifts, just an example) The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

This is in no way saying I'm going to build a kit bot, but this would be a way for a rookie team with many resources to build a good robot.

Is this un-GP in anyones mind? Any more ideas about how defense can be played in Overdrive? It's different from previous games we've seen yes, but it's still FIRST and I haven't seen a FIRST game yet that you can't find some way of playing defense in.

Part of this I posted in another thread previously, but I think that it dissevers a thread of it's own. Apologies in advance for errors, it's 5:21 am and I haven't gotten any sleep

[galewind]

or how about if you know that an opponent is good at hurdling, so instead you herd their ball slowly around the track? You're giving them two points per lap, but stopping them at getting 8!

[SuperJake]

Originally Posted by Zyik

An example of this: Lets say I have a typical six wheel kit bot and the "only" thing it can do is race around the track for points. Lets also say that one of the robots on the opposing side is a hurdling robot that operates via scissor lift and omni drive. (Nothing against scissor lifts, just an example) The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

This seems to differ from my interpretation of the rules. Check this out: if you were to push the robot from the Hurdling position to cross the finish line, that would be a 32" push (the width of the Overpass) since one would presumably be hurdling from their own Home Stretch and the finish line is at the end of the Home Stretch. This amount of contact would not be in the spirit of <G38> as this would no longer be a "bump" but a push.

<G38>Signal To Pass – A ROBOT may indicate a desire to pass an IMPEDING ROBOT by approaching the opponent ROBOT and “bumping” the back of the opponent ROBOT (relative to the Direction of Traffic).

• All “bump to pass” signals must be made with or against a STANDARD BUMPER and inside the BUMPER ZONE, or
• If in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, the ROBOT may “bump” the IMPEDING ROBOT with the TRACKBALL outside the BUMPER ZONE, providing the contact is made exclusively with the TRACKBALL.


Signaling a desire to pass by “bumping” must still be executed within the constraints indicated in Rule <G37>. E.g. high-speed intentional ramming or using the TRACKBALL to intentionally damage or topple an opponent are still not acceptable actions, and will be penalized.

However, there could be the potential of several robots attempting to Hurdle, but not yet in the act of hurdling, that could bring <G40> into play which could penalize the hurdling robot for impeding traffic.

Another thing to note is that <G42> seems to balance the game play such that anyone that looks like they are attempting to hurdle would be given the benefit of the doubt. It will be interesting to see how the Referees decide to enforce this.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Zyik

The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

In the situation you pose, you say that the robot is not in the process of hurdling yet. I disagree. Let's look at the definition of hurdling:

Originally Posted by Section 7 Definitions

HURDLING: The act of completing a HURDLE. To be considered in the process of HURDLING, the ROBOT must:
• be in its own HOME STRETCH, and
• be in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, and
• be moving toward the OVERPASS and/or elevating the TRACKBALL so that the top of the TRACKBALL is higher than the LANE DIVIDER.

For clarity let's say your pushing my robot. I have possession of a ball and you have just pushed me over the lane marker into my home stretch. According to the definition of hurdling I'm now in the process of doing it. My robot satisfies all three of those conditions: I'm in the Home Stretch, I have a ball and I'm moving toward the overpass (maybe because you're pushing me, but it doesn't specify that).

Now, since my robot is in the process of hurdling, <G42> is in effect and the question is are you breaking <G42>? Is a steady push considered overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt? I don't know for sure. The push is not a signal to pass, nor is it incidental contact. I'd say it's something to be asked in the Q&A.

[Bongle]

Another defensive maneuver I saw posted yesterday:

Let's say your robot and an opposing robot are in your home stretch. The opposing robot is herding a trackball. If you bump the trackball out of your homestretch* into the previous quad (i.e. move the trackball clockwise), then you prevent them from hurdling for 8 points or herding for 2 points when they finish their current lap. They won't be able to score substantial herding or hurdling points for 6 quads of movement.

*This is legal so long as your robot itself does not cross the lane divider between your home stretch and their post-home-stretch. IIRC, you can still move clockwise within a quad, just not clockwise from quad to quad.

I'm happy about the no-defense type rules. In previous games, even those that included low cost-of-entry scoring methods like the low goals in Aim High, it was often much more profitable to abuse the opponents to prevent them from scoring than it was to attempt to do the low-point option. This game basically forces you to either be a clever defender (no pinning, no impeding, no bashing while hurdling, etc) or actually try and get points yourself. Rack 'n Roll was deathly boring because it was far, far, easier to build an effective defender than an effective offender. In Aim High, a well-designed offense robot could be effectively immune from defense since they could score from anywhere.

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by Bongle

Another defensive maneuver I saw posted yesterday:

Let's say your robot and an opposing robot are in your home stretch. The opposing robot is herding a trackball. If you bump the trackball out of your homestretch* into the previous quad (i.e. move the trackball clockwise), then you prevent them from hurdling for 8 points or herding for 2 points when they finish their current lap. They won't be able to score substantial herding or hurdling points for 6 quads of movement.

*This is legal so long as your robot itself does not cross the lane divider between your home stretch and their post-home-stretch. IIRC, you can still move clockwise within a quad, just not clockwise from quad to quad.

Those are my thoughts exactly.
Now, question is, maybe it is worth for you to just stay in their home strech zone the whole game and dont let them score. That is deffinately defence.

[Justin M.]

While going for a defensive strategy is possible, remember that the scoring may wind up evening it's way out. By putting one robot out of commission, you are also putting your own robot out of commission scoring wise. Even if you can't herd or hurdle trackballs, you can still get that 2 points for crossing your finish line. This leaves 2 other robots to still go and score. I don't believe committing to a defensive strategy will be as beneficial as it sounds right now.

In response to your strategy, the refs may declare your pushing to be an obstruction of traffic or unsportsmanlike. You can also cancel out by simply raising your arm/trackball above the overpass once you get into your homezone. That is at least ONE of the characteristics of hurdling and that protects you under <G42>.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I got a question.

Since they have removed the 6' height restriction in the opponents home stretch, does that mean teams can block hirdling attempts?

[Justin M.]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I got a question.

Since they have removed the 6' height restriction in the opponents home stretch, does that mean teams can block hirdling attempts?

It should have no effect on the hurdle protection rule. A hurdle attempt can only be done in your own homezone.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Many people have been complaining about the fact that "There's no defense this year." I don't believe this, every year there has been some way of playing defense. It's true there won't be as much of the same kind of defense as Rack-and-Roll or Aim High, but they were different games. One thing 973 can do well is defense so I've put a lot of thought into this.

Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? This stops them from getting points, which is what I always understood defense to be.

Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. If you're pushing the robot you shouldn't be in contact with their trackball.

This falls under

<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn 2 points.

An example of this: Lets say I have a typical six wheel kit bot and the "only" thing it can do is race around the track for points. Lets also say that one of the robots on the opposing side is a hurdling robot that operates via scissor lift and omni drive. (Nothing against scissor lifts, just an example) The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

This is in no way saying I'm going to build a kit bot, but this would be a way for a rookie team with many resources to build a good robot.

Is this un-GP in anyones mind? Any more ideas about how defense can be played in Overdrive? It's different from previous games we've seen yes, but it's still FIRST and I haven't seen a FIRST game yet that you can't find some way of playing defense in.

Part of this I posted in another thread previously, but I think that it dissevers a thread of it's own. Apologies in advance for errors, it's 5:21 am and I haven't gotten any sleep

I think this is a blatant violation of the intent of the rules.

Any way that the rules can be read to allow defense (pushing/interaction between one robot that is trying to stop another from getting to a certain location, or from doing a certain task) seems to be complete lawyerism to me.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ). My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I would be very disappointed if teams took to subterfuge to attempt to play defense (ie: "bumping" to pass, by pushing a team halfway across the field, etc).

[Travis Schuh]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think everyone is sick of seeing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ). My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I have to say, some people do enjoy defense. There is a certain skill required to do it properly, and the teams who have figured out the trick find it fun.

Also, it is always nice to have the safety net of defense to fall back on if your offense strategy doesn't work...

-Travis

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. If you're pushing the robot you shouldn't be in contact with their trackball.

The entire robot must cross the vertical plane to have been considered as CROSSING the line as per definition of CROSSING:

CROSSING: The act of a TRACKBALL or ROBOT passing through the plane defined by a line (i.e.
LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE) when it is projected vertically upwards. A TRACKBALL or
ROBOT shall have CROSSED a line when all parts of the object, while traveling in a 
counterclockwise direction, have completely passed through the plane.

So, if a team is nudged so that just their front wheels go over the line, they can back up and re-align themselves. In most cases, teams trying to hurdle will be clotheslined by the overpass as a result of said "nudging", so they wont cross the finish line. Also, I have a feeling you'd have to hit a hurdling robot pretty hard for their entire robot to cross the finish line, resulting in a 10 point penalty.

Thanks. I never thought of it this way, now we know how to avoid this type of defense.

[Tetraman]

Did anyone also see this half-loophole?

You don't need to circle the field. As long as you stay behind the lines you can stay in an area and play some interesting def.

[jdejoannis]

Someone is in denial.

Lets face it, there is less defense this year. Last year, harassing a star scorer was quite worthwhile if you had a decent drivetrain.

<G42> is unequivocal about not harassing hurdlers.

<G29> prohibits POSSESSION of opponents trackballs. Therefore playing keepaway will be difficult.

The best chance is to herd opponents trackballs whenever the chance presents itself. Basically, give it a shove in the wrong direction whenever you see it. This is slim pickings. It remains to be seen how the judges will view deliberately moving in front of herding robot.

/Jason

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by jdejoannis

Someone is in denial.

Lets face it, there is less defense this year. Last year, harassing a star scorer was quite worthwhile if you had a decent drivetrain.

<G42> is unequivocal about not harassing hurdlers.

<G29> prohibits POSSESSION of opponents trackballs. Therefore playing keepaway will be difficult.

The best chance is to herd opponents trackballs whenever the chance presents itself. Basically, give it a shove in the wrong direction whenever you see it. This is slim pickings. It remains to be seen how the judges will view deliberately moving in front of herding robot.

/Jason

The definition of POSSESSION a trackball is quite clear, as well.

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is
supported or captured by an ALLIANCE shall be considered POSSESSION of the TRACKBALL. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “supported” by a ROBOT if in the estimation of a reasonably
astute observer the majority of the weight of the TRACKBALL is being borne by the ROBOT. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “captured” by a ROBOT if, as the ROBOT moves or changes
orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the TRACKBALL remains in approximately the same
position relative to the ROBOT. Both the “supported” and “captured” conditions include the case
where the TRACKBALL is also in contact with the floor.

So, if a team bumps a ball and it rolls away from them, they are considered HERDING and not in POSSESSION.

<G29> POSSESSING Opponent’s TRACKBALLS - ROBOTS may not be in the POSSESSION of a
TRACKBALL belonging to an opposing ALLIANCE. A PENALTY will be assigned for each
violation. HERDING of an opponent’s TRACKBALL and removing an opponent’s
TRACKBALL from the OVERPASS is permitted.