Defense, It's still here.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Many people have been complaining about the fact that "There's no defense this year." I don't believe this, every year there has been some way of playing defense. It's true there won't be as much of the same kind of defense as Rack-and-Roll or Aim High, but they were different games. One thing 973 can do well is defense so I've put a lot of thought into this.

Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? This stops them from getting points, which is what I always understood defense to be.

Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. If you're pushing the robot you shouldn't be in contact with their trackball.

This falls under

<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn 2 points.

An example of this: Lets say I have a typical six wheel kit bot and the "only" thing it can do is race around the track for points. Lets also say that one of the robots on the opposing side is a hurdling robot that operates via scissor lift and omni drive. (Nothing against scissor lifts, just an example) The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

This is in no way saying I'm going to build a kit bot, but this would be a way for a rookie team with many resources to build a good robot.

Is this un-GP in anyones mind? Any more ideas about how defense can be played in Overdrive? It's different from previous games we've seen yes, but it's still FIRST and I haven't seen a FIRST game yet that you can't find some way of playing defense in.

Part of this I posted in another thread previously, but I think that it dissevers a thread of it's own. Apologies in advance for errors, it's 5:21 am and I haven't gotten any sleep

I think this is a blatant violation of the intent of the rules.

Any way that the rules can be read to allow defense (pushing/interaction between one robot that is trying to stop another from getting to a certain location, or from doing a certain task) seems to be complete lawyerism to me.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ). My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I would be very disappointed if teams took to subterfuge to attempt to play defense (ie: "bumping" to pass, by pushing a team halfway across the field, etc).

[Travis Schuh]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think everyone is sick of seeing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ). My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I have to say, some people do enjoy defense. There is a certain skill required to do it properly, and the teams who have figured out the trick find it fun.

Also, it is always nice to have the safety net of defense to fall back on if your offense strategy doesn't work...

-Travis

[Tetraman]

Did anyone also see this half-loophole?

You don't need to circle the field. As long as you stay behind the lines you can stay in an area and play some interesting def.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

Did anyone also see this half-loophole?

You don't need to circle the field. As long as you stay behind the lines you can stay in an area and play some interesting def.

I'm pretty sure you'd be breaking <G40>. I bolded where.

Originally Posted by Section 7 - <G40>

IMPEDING Traffic – ROBOTS shall not intentionally IMPEDE the flow of traffic around the TRACK. A ROBOT will be considered to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding around the TRACK. A ROBOT can be found to be IMPEDING traffic if:
• the ROBOT is traveling slowly relative to the approaching ROBOT, and moving to prevent the approaching ROBOT from passing, or
• the ROBOT is stopped on the TRACK and there is no clear lane of passage for the opposing ROBOT, or
• the ROBOT pins an opposing ROBOT against an arena element, border, or another ROBOT
Note that a ROBOT is not IMPEDING traffic if:
• there is a clear “passing lane” around the ROBOT, or
• the IMPEDING ROBOT and the approaching ROBOT are from the same ALLIANCE (i.e. a ROBOT can not impede another ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE), or
• the ROBOT is in the process of HURDLING (except as noted in Rule <G43>).

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think this is a blatant violation of the intent of the rules.

Any way that the rules can be read to allow defense (pushing/interaction between one robot that is trying to stop another from getting to a certain location, or from doing a certain task) seems to be complete lawyerism to me.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ).

My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I would be very disappointed if teams took to subterfuge to attempt to play defense (ie: "bumping" to pass, by pushing a team halfway across the field, etc).

Not very long, Cory. But perhaps my response won't be as expected as you originally thought.

"Defense" cannot solely be defined this year by the extensive "pushing" interaction you describe. I do believe the GDC does not want to see robots being pushed "halfway across the field" this year. It would be akin to Tony Stewart sacrificing his car to remove an opponent from the race....not that Tony Stewart would ever do such a thing.... I would not qualify such an act as "subterfuge", either, for it should be pretty durned obvious to the referees if such an involuntary trip were occurring in front of their eyes! However, I also do not believe this was anywhere near the type of strategy Lucy was suggesting in her original post, and she and other defensive-minded individuals are entitled to this thread discussing its legality and merits, along with any other methods of defending which are brought up.

Personally, I'd certainly like to know the GDC's intent for robot interaction during the last second moments when a team is trying to put bonus balls up and another is trying to knock them down. At this point, there is no more hurdling - teams are "capping" - freezing their balls in mid hurdle, so to speak - so are their anti-defense liberties removed during these times? Is pushing in the bumper zone ok then? Is posting straight up to block capping attempts with your arm a legal manuever? And when one defending robot is actively herding an opponent's ball, playing keep away, how aggressive can the would-be offender be in trying to retrieve their scoring object? These are all seemingly legal strategies and reasonable questions - bumper zone interaction is explicitly allowed (whenever it isn't - ha) - what kind of contact does the GDC expect and approve of during such situations? I'll be looking for these to show up on the Q/A once the system opens up.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ).

I don't think anyone enjoys watching any robot get "bashed" in the most crippling of senses, whether the damage occurs by intent (unless you are the twisted transgressor), via ignorance of the rules, or via mistakes in judgement during the heat of competition. However, it seems you wish to suggest here that all forms of defense have this negative connotation. I think this does not respect those teams who on the whole work hard every year to play defense well and play it within the rules.

And yes, I DO think teams who build those "boxes on wheels" and play that D correctly very much enjoy it when their robot is able to do something productive on the field, especially when the "glitziest" of offensive game objectives may be out of their technical reach.

The offensively proficient certainly have had ample opportunities to shine and bring excitement to many an event even in the most defensive of recent seasons - 2004, 2006, and 2007. The FIRST community rightfully celebrates the accomplishments of those who have achieved such successes. I know (boy do I) how many of us believe it shouldn't be that hard for all FIRST teams to slap together some sort of rudimentary arm and off they go just because a drive base is simple and boring and they should challenge themselves to do more, but I believe the true reality is that some teams just don't have the experience, the time, the organization, or the money. They may very well have the desire, though, and seek only a little bit of assistance from those in the know to nudge them on their way toward technological improvement. Are we fortunate ones doing enough to facilitate their growth and advancement? Or would we prefer they just stay out of our way?

For those "lost" teams, I would hope we can still reserve a bit of room for praise and recognition of their achievements, relatively miniscule they may be to those of us who are used to so much more.

In 2008, I applaud the GDC in providing a much wider variety of both offensive and defensive options that are accessible to rookies and other teams who may not necessarily be as fortunate in the resource department as those of us who can be adept at scoring each year.