Defense, It's still here.

[Jonathan Norris]

I have a funny felling that this year is going to be alot like '05 where yes you could play some defense if you wanted to, but the opportunity for penalties is just too high. It really just depends on how the refs manage the game and basically outlaw any major interaction with scoring robots.

[Madison]

I think, perhaps with the sole exception of overt contact of a hurdling robot, defense is completely proper and viable.

I mentioned in another thread the potential, with <G36> absent, to erect a wall in front of or behind your opponent's overpass such that hurdling is impossible. Coupled with a drive that allowed you to move sideways, you could become very effective at blocking hurdling attempts while never contacting the opposing robots at all. I cannot imagine how at any time contact initiated by their robot could result in a penalty upon your team. That notion is ludicrous.

Further, despite rules about "bumping to pass," there are no specific prohibitions against gently escorting robots in one direction or another. I understand and appreciate that there are rules governing behavior in attempts to pass on the field, but those rules do not preclude me from having no intention to pass and acting accordingly.

I think we'll see more defense than a lot of folks think, but I don't know that there are many viable strategies that for defense that might require a robot design different than something designed to score.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I think, perhaps with the sole exception of overt contact of a hurdling robot, defense is completely proper and viable.

I mentioned in another thread the potential, with <G36> absent, to erect a wall in front of or behind your opponent's overpass such that hurdling is impossible. Coupled with a drive that allowed you to move sideways, you could become very effective at blocking hurdling attempts while never contacting the opposing robots at all. I cannot imagine how at any time contact initiated by their robot could result in a penalty upon your team. That notion is ludicrous.

Further, despite rules about "bumping to pass," there are no specific prohibitions against gently escorting robots in one direction or another. I understand and appreciate that there are rules governing behavior in attempts to pass on the field, but those rules do not preclude me from having no intention to pass and acting accordingly.

I think we'll see more defense than a lot of folks think, but I don't know that there are many viable strategies that for defense that might require a robot design different than something designed to score.

Agreed. and this is what I was asking about.

With the removal of the 6' height restriction is it legal to block hurdling (not interfere with the hurdling robot)?

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I mentioned in another thread the potential, with <G36> absent, to erect a wall in front of or behind your opponent's overpass such that hurdling is impossible. Coupled with a drive that allowed you to move sideways, you could become very effective at blocking hurdling attempts while never contacting the opposing robots at all. I cannot imagine how at any time contact initiated by their robot could result in a penalty upon your team. That notion is ludicrous.

If you try this approach, you may need a few extra team members to help you count all your penalty points. There are a few rules that very effectively combine to prevent you from doing this.

-dave

[David Brinza]

I think there'll be plenty of defense, just not the "smash and crash" kind that FIRST is rightfully trying to discourage.

I can imagine alliance strategies involving "keep away" from their opponent's effective hurdling robots. Slow driving robots will challenge the driving skills of the "rabbits". Don't expect uninhibited scoring in Overdrive...it will be a lot harder grab trackballs and move quickly around the track than some might think.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

Did anyone also see this half-loophole?

You don't need to circle the field. As long as you stay behind the lines you can stay in an area and play some interesting def.

I'm pretty sure you'd be breaking <G40>. I bolded where.

Originally Posted by Section 7 - <G40>

IMPEDING Traffic – ROBOTS shall not intentionally IMPEDE the flow of traffic around the TRACK. A ROBOT will be considered to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding around the TRACK. A ROBOT can be found to be IMPEDING traffic if:
• the ROBOT is traveling slowly relative to the approaching ROBOT, and moving to prevent the approaching ROBOT from passing, or
• the ROBOT is stopped on the TRACK and there is no clear lane of passage for the opposing ROBOT, or
• the ROBOT pins an opposing ROBOT against an arena element, border, or another ROBOT
Note that a ROBOT is not IMPEDING traffic if:
• there is a clear “passing lane” around the ROBOT, or
• the IMPEDING ROBOT and the approaching ROBOT are from the same ALLIANCE (i.e. a ROBOT can not impede another ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE), or
• the ROBOT is in the process of HURDLING (except as noted in Rule <G43>).

[Madison]

Originally Posted by dlavery

If you try this approach, you may need a few extra team members to help you count all your penalty points. There are a few rules that very effectively combine to prevent you from doing this.

-dave

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

Beyond this nothing else springs to mind, though I've just woken up. Again, I can't imagine that any contact by any opposing robot unto me can (or should) be considered overt, blatant or aggressive. The caveat is that any robot in possession of a trackball and in its home stretch can be considered to be "hurdling," and contact with them or their ball as such is a very bad thing.

In circumstances, however, where we're defending from behind their finish line and, as I suspect many teams will, they've released the ball to complete the hurdle -- that team no longer satisfies the conditions of HURDLING -- and, moreso, we are really doing nothing more than HERDING at a height of 7 feet. I can't imagine how a wall, sitting innocently on one side of the overpass and bouncing balls away, is doing anything wrong.

Of course, we're not building this robot, so my interest in this is almost purely academic.

[chapmatr]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? This stops them from getting points, which is what I always understood defense to be.

Not sure if anyone else caught this, but the rules say that if the ball is knocked off of the overpass you get points. So it doesn't matter HOW they fall, so long as they do. I just want to say that defense will be much more difficult to manage than trying to score, so I'd recommend building a tough bot that can at least do laps.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think this is a blatant violation of the intent of the rules.

Any way that the rules can be read to allow defense (pushing/interaction between one robot that is trying to stop another from getting to a certain location, or from doing a certain task) seems to be complete lawyerism to me.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ).

My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I would be very disappointed if teams took to subterfuge to attempt to play defense (ie: "bumping" to pass, by pushing a team halfway across the field, etc).

Not very long, Cory. But perhaps my response won't be as expected as you originally thought.

"Defense" cannot solely be defined this year by the extensive "pushing" interaction you describe. I do believe the GDC does not want to see robots being pushed "halfway across the field" this year. It would be akin to Tony Stewart sacrificing his car to remove an opponent from the race....not that Tony Stewart would ever do such a thing.... I would not qualify such an act as "subterfuge", either, for it should be pretty durned obvious to the referees if such an involuntary trip were occurring in front of their eyes! However, I also do not believe this was anywhere near the type of strategy Lucy was suggesting in her original post, and she and other defensive-minded individuals are entitled to this thread discussing its legality and merits, along with any other methods of defending which are brought up.

Personally, I'd certainly like to know the GDC's intent for robot interaction during the last second moments when a team is trying to put bonus balls up and another is trying to knock them down. At this point, there is no more hurdling - teams are "capping" - freezing their balls in mid hurdle, so to speak - so are their anti-defense liberties removed during these times? Is pushing in the bumper zone ok then? Is posting straight up to block capping attempts with your arm a legal manuever? And when one defending robot is actively herding an opponent's ball, playing keep away, how aggressive can the would-be offender be in trying to retrieve their scoring object? These are all seemingly legal strategies and reasonable questions - bumper zone interaction is explicitly allowed (whenever it isn't - ha) - what kind of contact does the GDC expect and approve of during such situations? I'll be looking for these to show up on the Q/A once the system opens up.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ).

I don't think anyone enjoys watching any robot get "bashed" in the most crippling of senses, whether the damage occurs by intent (unless you are the twisted transgressor), via ignorance of the rules, or via mistakes in judgement during the heat of competition. However, it seems you wish to suggest here that all forms of defense have this negative connotation. I think this does not respect those teams who on the whole work hard every year to play defense well and play it within the rules.

And yes, I DO think teams who build those "boxes on wheels" and play that D correctly very much enjoy it when their robot is able to do something productive on the field, especially when the "glitziest" of offensive game objectives may be out of their technical reach.

The offensively proficient certainly have had ample opportunities to shine and bring excitement to many an event even in the most defensive of recent seasons - 2004, 2006, and 2007. The FIRST community rightfully celebrates the accomplishments of those who have achieved such successes. I know (boy do I) how many of us believe it shouldn't be that hard for all FIRST teams to slap together some sort of rudimentary arm and off they go just because a drive base is simple and boring and they should challenge themselves to do more, but I believe the true reality is that some teams just don't have the experience, the time, the organization, or the money. They may very well have the desire, though, and seek only a little bit of assistance from those in the know to nudge them on their way toward technological improvement. Are we fortunate ones doing enough to facilitate their growth and advancement? Or would we prefer they just stay out of our way?

For those "lost" teams, I would hope we can still reserve a bit of room for praise and recognition of their achievements, relatively miniscule they may be to those of us who are used to so much more.

In 2008, I applaud the GDC in providing a much wider variety of both offensive and defensive options that are accessible to rookies and other teams who may not necessarily be as fortunate in the resource department as those of us who can be adept at scoring each year.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by chapmatr

Not sure if anyone else caught this, but the rules say that if the ball is knocked off of the overpass you get points. So it doesn't matter HOW they fall, so long as they do.

Removing the ball from the overpass after the hybrid period is over does not score any points. It would be to an alliance's advantage to leave the opposing alliance's trackballs on the overpass until just before the end of the match, and remove them at the last possible moment in order to deprive the opponents of the <G14> bonus.

Originally Posted by <G09>

During the HYBRID PERIOD, each TRACKBALL that is removed from the OVERPASS (i.e. completely removed from its initial TARGET LOCATION and not in contact with any portions of the OVERPASS) at the end of the HYBRID PERIOD will earn 8 points.

Originally Posted by <G14>

When the MATCH ends, each TRACKBALL is at least partially supported by the OVERPASS and not in contact with any ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn a 12 point bonus.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I think we'll see more defense than a lot of folks think, but I don't know that there are many viable strategies that for defense that might require a robot design different than something designed to score.

And this is the beauty of this year's game - I always enjoy it when teams can squeeze more strategic functionality out of one robot system.

An arm can be used for offense and defense.

A stout drive can be used for stability in guiding the balls around the field, as well as dictating where you want to be on the track when it's advantageous for you to be "over there" instead of where you're at now. Say, for when there are those moments you'd rather run on the inside track to push the quick guys to the outside of the track and negate the benefits of their speed with the longer distance they'd then have to travel to make those laps.....

[GMKlenklen]

it seems the GDC has replaced the "kitbot and bumbpers = ram" defence with something more like "kitbot and bumpers = racecar" "defence". In which you can only score points, and defensive oppertunities are also penalty opertunities.

it seems to me there are really 3 viable strategies for the teleoperated period:

run around the field

run around field with Trackball

hurdel Trackball

[Molten]

If in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, the ROBOT may “bump” the IMPEDING ROBOT with the TRACKBALL outside the BUMPER ZONE, providing the contact is made exclusively with the TRACKBALL.

Take note of this part of the G38 rule. I think that this shows that the original strategy of this thread is allowed. Even if it is not amongst bumper to bumper pushes. It should be allowed as long as they just use a trackball to do all of the pushing. It wouldn't be that hard to design a mechanism that would pick up the ball and hold it in front of itself in a sturdy fashion. With this, it could almost make the ball a part of itself. Of course, to do this for the entire match would cause your team mates to only have one trackball to score with so it is really a mute point. I just thought I would throw this idea out there among the masses and see what you can do with it.

Also, to all of you who believe that defense is unimportant. Just imagine a football team with no defense. Really that analogy works for any sport, football just happens to be a good example.

Finally, a humorous thought to part on. Just imagine if you were to fire that trackball as a projectile. They do not have restrictions on this like they did in the Aim High. Hard telling how fast you could get that ball to. I KNOW THIS DOES NOT GO WITH GP. I just thought it a funny picture to see a ball that size being launched at incredible speed and imagine the impact.

[Ze Møøse]

I think defense in this year's game is going to be pretty much limited to interaction with the opposing alliance's trackballs rather than playing defense against the robots themselves. In my opinion knocking an opponent's trackball back a quad as Bongle mentioned is probably the most viable defensive maneuver in this game.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Molten

Finally, a humorous thought to part on. Just imagine if you were to fire that trackball as a projectile. They do not have restrictions on this like they did in the Aim High. Hard telling how fast you could get that ball to. I KNOW THIS DOES NOT GO WITH GP. I just thought it a funny picture to see a ball that size being launched at incredible speed and imagine the impact.

But along with GP, if one team is trying to hurdle while another team is trying to block them, is it really the first teams fault if the second team incurs damage (or tips over, which would be a real possibility) if they are successful at blocking the ball?