How many RoboCoach Commands?

[Uberbots]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I'm not quite ready to put it to bed....I see no rule violation (either literal or in spirit) if you transmit 4 different sequences of the four buttons, to execute 4 different high level commands.

For example, using the number buttons,

Drive straight: 241
Turn left: 134
Whack ball: 423
Stop: 123

The signal that the remote sends when you push one button is coded already, somehow, isn't it? I see no rule preventing you from changing the coding scheme.

Might be a Q&A question...with emphasis that the intent of this method is to improve safety by reducing communication errors

You cant say with this method that one button is doing one thing, as they are always part of a larger message.

[MrForbes]

Not at all! The message is what comes out the other end...and I am still only selecting one of 4 commands, which is what the rules allow.

Note that I specified the message in each case:

For the message "Drive straight", the signal is: 241
For the message "Turn left", the signal is: 134
For the message "Whack ball", the signal is: 423
For the message "Stop", the signal is: 123

I have modified the SIGNAL to be 3 characters, but I have NOT changed the number of MESSAGES. The are still only 4 messages.

===================================

To show you what would be illegal, consider this example of a use of a larger number of coded messages, with a smaller signal:

The message "drive" uses a first digit of 1
The message "turn" uses a first digit of 2
The message "manipulate ball" uses a first digit of 3
The message "stop" uses a first digit of 4.

Now, we get to the illegal part:

For a first digit of 1, the second digit of 1 means "slow"
For a first digit of 1, the second digit of 2 means "medium"
For a first digit of 1, the second digit of 3 means "fast"

For a first digit of 2, the second digit of 1 means "right"
For a first digit of 2, the second digit of 2 means "left"

For a first digit of 3, the second digit of 1 means "pop off overpass"
For a first digit of 3, the second digit of 2 means "pick up"
For a first digit of 3, the second digit of 3 means "drop"

For a first digit of 4, the second digit of 1 means "with manipulator down"
For a first digit of 4, the second digit of 2 means "with manipulator up"

See how in this illegal example, we use only the 4 digits, and the signal is only two characters long, but it is decoded into ten different MESSAGES!

[jtdowney]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I'm not quite ready to put it to bed....I see no rule violation (either literal or in spirit) if you transmit 4 different sequences of the four buttons, to execute 4 different high level commands.

R65 states

Active SIGNALING DEVICES shall:
* be operated through only a single input at any given time (e.g. may not be operated by depressing two buttons at one time)

[MrForbes]

Pressing two buttons in sequence is not the same as pressing two buttons at once.

However, it is likely that the intent of that rule is also to prohibit the longer signal scheme I presented.....so if someone plans to use this scheme, it would be wise to ask about it on the Q&A

[jtdowney]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Pressing two buttons in sequence is not the same as pressing two buttons at once.

Well then R65 also states

Active SIGNALING DEVICES shall:
* not use changes in the signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (e.g. Morse code)

Which rules out sending a sequence of button commands for one command.

[MrForbes]

Didn't I just explain how this does NOT increase the complexity of the message? (ie. it is not transmitting more than more 4 messages) I guess I did a lousy job the first time

Let's say you want to transmit for different commands, which are:

Drive straight
Turn left
Whack ball
Stop

First case: You could use a single button for each one

Drive straight = "1" button
Turn left = "2" button
Whack ball = "3" button
Stop = "4" button

Second case: You could make it use the sequential pressing of 3 buttons for each one:

Drive straight: press "2" button, then press "4" button, then press "1" button
Turn left: press "1" button, then press "3" button, then press "4" button
Whack ball: press "4" button, then press "2" button, then press "3" button
Stop: press "1" button, then press "2" button, then press "3" button

What is the message in each case?

In the first case, the first message is "Drive straight". In the second case, the first message is "Drive straight".

How is "Drive straight" a longer message than "Drive straight"?

I don't understand.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Didn't I just explain how this does NOT increase the complexity of the message? (ie. it is not transmitting more than more 4 messages)
...
How is "Drive straight" a longer message than "Drive straight"?

I don't understand.

"Drive straight" is not a message, it's an action. With the sequential button presses in your example you're obeying the "do no more than four actions" rule, but you're still violating the "don't use changes in signal states to send long messages" rule.

[johnr]

so who is going to confirm that six robots are doing exactly what is written on six small cards? six more refs? instant replay? gp?

[jtdowney]

We can sit here and argue semantics until the cows come in but I think the rules have very clearly stated the way the Hybrid mode should operate is you have 4 buttons that do 4 actions and those actions cannot change the actions the other buttons perform. It doesn't matter how complex or simple your IR commands are. Button 1 can only make it do one thing and the same with buttons 2 through 4.

[MrForbes]

I am doing the following things:

--using a maximum of four different inputs from the robocoach

--communicating no more than four messages, states, or conditions to the robot

--limiting the robot to react to four distinct commands

--I am helping to insure that the robot will only react to permitted signaling devices belonging to the assigned alliance


I am not doing any of the following prohibit things:

--switching between more than 4 states or conditions

--operating thru more than one input at a time

--using changes in signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (eg Morse code)

(note that morse code uses only two digits to encode the whole alphabet and number set, where I am using 4 different 3 character long sequences of 4 numbers to encode 4 different messages)

I still don't understand how this is a violation of any of the rules.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I am not doing any of the following prohibit things:
...
--using changes in signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (eg Morse code)

That is exactly what you are doing.

(note that morse code uses only two digits to encode the whole alphabet and number set, where I am using 4 different 3 character long sequences of 4 numbers to encode 4 different messages)

I still don't understand how this is a violation of any of the rules.

You said it yourself. You're using long sequences of numbers. You're using changes in signal states to encode larger messages. Your signals are "1", "2", "3", and "4". Your messages are "2 4 1", "1 3 4", etc. I see no way for you to legitimately claim that you're not sending a message encoded by multiple signals. The fact that you only define four of the possible 256 four-character messages doesn't alter the fact that you're using messages created by changes in signal states.

(Morse code actually uses a set of either three or four symbols, not two "digits", but that's beside the point.)

[MrForbes]

(I agree about Morse code, I didn't mention the short and long spaces)

What you say may be true, but could you please quote a rule that says so?

I can't find one.

[Nate Laverdure]

Sorry to be in the middle of this epic Morse code throwdown, but I have a thought:
Could a lack of a command also be a command? Would it count as one of the four?

Example: Press "1" and the robot does something. If no command is received in the next three seconds, the robot reverts to a previous behavior until another button is pushed.

In this example, you are technically sending information by not pressing a button within a time period. Would this count as a command?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

Sorry to be in the middle of this epic Morse code throwdown, but I have a thought:
Could a lack of a command also be a command? Would it count as one of the four?

Example: Press "1" and the robot does something. If no command is received in the next three seconds, the robot reverts to a previous behavior until another button is pushed.

In this example, you are technically sending information by not pressing a button within a time period. Would this count as a command?

Wouldn't that be very similar to a command "Move forward for 3 seconds"? That sounds legal.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

Sorry to be in the middle of this epic Morse code throwdown, but I have a thought:
Could a lack of a command also be a command? Would it count as one of the four?

Example: Press "1" and the robot does something. If no command is received in the next three seconds, the robot reverts to a previous behavior until another button is pushed.

In this example, you are technically sending information by not pressing a button within a time period. Would this count as a command?

If Press "1" says "go forward for three seconds" that is an command that execute a preprogrammed sequence. Like "go explore that rock".

Not pressing "1" within 3 seconds is not sending a command. The bot is simply playing out it's program.

Pressing "1" again before the 3 seconds to restart the timer could be considered
1) reissuing the command (so you are patting the "watchdog)
2) or a new type of command (extended period)