why I don't like this year's game

[Waynep]

Originally Posted by galewind

The solution to FIRST challenges should never be about coming up with the "l33t drive trainx0rz to pwn all teh newbz who try to play the game". It isn't about trying to come up with loopholes to the rules. The amount of "hawt robot on robot action" is not what we should gauge our opinions of the game design on.

In years past, rookie teams, or teams without resources, that were unsuccessful at making a manipulator would make wonderful alliance opponents, because you knew that robots without a solid means to participate would be minor nuisances at best.

In this year's game, they've CONSIDERABLY raised the difficulty of the challenge, while simultaneously raising the accessibility factor of the game to less-experienced or less-technical teams. These little bots can now be a factor in the scoring of the game, and can continue to play both an offensive and defensive role with a half-working machine (even if its a team who had a manipulator that broke during practice rounds).

The real challenge for the veteran teams is to maximize their score potential through a more carefully thought out hybrid period, and by consistently being able to maximize every scoring opportunity they can. An let me tell you, I can't WAIT to dig into that IR board.

I honestly wonder at this point whether or not this game will get a bit more boring to watch as the season progresses, but it's too early to tell.

I agree with everything that Chris said. I LOVE this game and am really looking forward to seeing it played. Last year at the MC luncheon at the Championship, Woodie asked all of the us what we thought about the '07 game. My complaint to him was that the game didn't provide the gratification, reward, and sense of individual offensive contribution in each match for the younger teams with less resources, technological know how and experience at the most precarious times of their existence. Making a good ramp wasn't trivial and you had to rely on your alliance partner; handling the tubes and building an arm was deemed to difficult for many of the teams. Let's just say that things happen and don't always work out and I saw a lot of disheartened faces after matches (5 regionals and the CMP worth). In talks with Dean and Woodie, all 3 of us agreed that this problem had been addressed and felt really good about it.

Building sustainable teams is a huge issue in FIRST. Sure we gained 300 or so teams this year, but how many teams did we lose? It's not a statistic that we want to talk about or highlight, but it's an issue that all of the FIRST community particularly the seasoned teams need to consider. These younger teams are the majority and part of the future of our program. While I encourage free exchange of ideas and opinions. I think it is our responsibility to try to limit or carefully qualify and explain the negatives so these younger teams do not get discouraged as they see the veteran players complaining, while making the effort to be positive on these forums and in our encounters with these teams throughout build and competition season. The overall level of play is only going to get better if we transition more young teams into experienced confident vets. As talking to Jane Young this past weekend reminded me, we need to show them that the glass is half full, not half empty, and challenge them to fill the remaining space.

Further reasons why I like this game:
On the other side there were escalating challenges for the more seasoned teams. This is one of the largest game objects we have had in FIRST and among the heaviest, the slick cover adds a whole new dimension to the use of large balls. Designing a game to provide an attainable challenge for teams across the spectrum is difficult. But I think the GDC nailed it and I thanked everyone of them I could at the kickoff.

It's easy to dismiss this game as silly and NASCAR like, which btw there's nothing wrong with. I wanna go FAST!!! But more importantly the GDC payed a lot of attention to the fluidity of the game. I really think we'll see a lot of movement and not just in circles with the many ways the teams can tackle this year's challenge. The catch and release clause for teams rolling the ball across the line was well thought out, not allowing the teams to just capture a ball and drive around for the entire match. There's dimension and depth to this game which should provide for a lot of visual excitement.

I'm thrilled about hybrid mode. The GDC really made this period worth it in the scores. I can't wait to see what kind of combination control inputs/methodologies teams come up with. The challenge of simply driving over the your start finish line to score points in this period is fantastic. This encourages all teams to move in this period. There is no reason we should see robots take a static defensive position during the hybrid period as we've seen in the past. Veteran teams it is my challenge to you before and at the regionals that NO ROBOT GETS LEFT BEHIND in hybrid everyone DRIVES at the very least to attempt to cross one or two lines. Just giving them the code doesn't count. I fully expect you to help them understand the commands, answer their questions, leave them with the confidence that they can do it to, and if they have questions you'll be there to help them.

This game encourages creativity and challenges us to think across the board with something for everyone. For that reason it's a winner in my book. I'm ready to be amazed by what teams come up with. The question is will you be open minded enough to be inspired by this game and what solutions the FIRST community presents too?

[Travis Hoffman]

Also, the lack of defense solidifies that this game is a RACE - the object is to go faster than the other guy to score more - not slow down and block to make the other guy score less.

Visions of 2005 dancing in my head.

If I were an alliance containing 2-3 extremely successful and dominant bots representing some of the "Hendrick Motorsports" teams of FIRST, I'd certainly love for the relative Dave Blaneys of the robot world to believe in the all-encompassing mantra expressed above. It would make Hendrick teams' domination that much easier.

It is the responsibility of each alliance to evaluate their offensive capabilities relative to that of their opponent before each match. If an alliance of Blaneys determines they do not have the mix of offensive skills needed to overcome the skills of the Hendrick teams in a straight-up race, then they have an obligation not only to themselves but to the AUDIENCE to investigate appropriate, creative, and legal means of slowing down the scoring of the opposing alliance. Effectively employing at least one of your bots toward interrupting the best-laid plans of the zippy and efficient opposition may just let you balance the scoring enough to where luck and other factors may swing the result into your alliance's favor.

Blind faith in the perseverance of "the little alliance that could" in 2008 will often result in the blind waking up at the end of the journey and finding that the high-speed bullet train lapped you 20 times and arrived two hours previous to you, precisely because they were left to travel on a different track with absolutely no unexpected delays.

Sometimes you gotta throw a cow onto the tracks to slow 'em down. I do recognize and appreciate the much wider selection of cows offered by the GDC to teams this year than in recent seasons.

Defense isn't dead....it's just been reincarnated....as a cow of a different color.....

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

I don't like this game because it didn't capture my imagination, make me look at things differently, and most importantly, make my brain hurt.

Drop a trackball on your head, that'll make your brain hurt.

My initial reaction was being underwhelmed, to say the least. Then we got the ball out. Geez, we gotta pick up that thing?! I thought making the bot would be easy this year.

Maybe there's not as much strategy in point manipulation as there was in Rack n Roll or Triple Play. It's more like racking up points in Aim High. But there still will be strategy. The simple fact that your team of 3 only has 2 game pieces leads to all sorts of strategic decisions.

I'm willing to let things simmer a while to see what kind of soup we get in the end.

[Maggie27]

They're trying to challenge us by making things harder. They did say that, if you don't recall. How are we supposed to learn if things just come easy to us? We don't. Our minds need to expand on ways to score more than the opposing team. So what if we can't play defense in the ways that we've played in the past. There are other ways that just need some brainstorming & rule reviewing.

[team1203 4life]

my first thought was that it ws agrevating that you couldent play defence especially since my team is great at playing defence but is still a great game this yeaar even thought therre wint be much varience in robot design

[Maggie27]

My team has basically ONLY played defense all 3 years we've been a part of FIRST. This year we're challenged to make more than that.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Maggie27

My team has basically ONLY played defense all 3 years we've been a part of FIRST. This year we're challenged to make more than that.

I think that is a key point in this whole discussion.
Our thinking can form itself into patterns that we are familiar with. We have an incredible tool - our brain/thinking processes. Yet, we often fall into set patterns of thinking, narrowing our range of possibilities and challenges when we do that. This year, the GDC offers us all an opportunity to expand, explore. Technology isn't going to stop developing. Innovation isn't going to stop. If we think we have the skill sets we need for the next 5, 10, 15, 40 years, we need to think again. And again. Flexibility is a great asset to have when participating in the exciting program called FIRST. It's kind of like - get a bigger hammer, but along the lines of having a more receptive mindset.

[Tytus Gerrish]

I don't like the flagpole i have to invade my space with

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Drop a trackball on your head, that'll make your brain hurt.

My initial reaction was being underwhelmed, to say the least. Then we got the ball out. Geez, we gotta pick up that thing?! I thought making the bot would be easy this year.

Maybe there's not as much strategy in point manipulation as there was in Rack n Roll or Triple Play. It's more like racking up points in Aim High. But there still will be strategy. The simple fact that your team of 3 only has 2 game pieces leads to all sorts of strategic decisions.

I'm willing to let things simmer a while to see what kind of soup we get in the end.

I want to come up with some witty response, but eh I won't. When I can imagine seeing at the VCU regional again teams just racing in a circle, gently nudging eachother to pass, to score, then I'm falling asleep. We're talking about a regional where many matches were 20 vs. 10 in 2005 (with those scores being the robots getting to the end zone). How about we stop having this great big gap between what teams can do (either easy tasks that make boiling water look hard) or things only Wildstang can accomplish (10lb 40" ball anyone?)

Give me 2006 any day, I wish I had waited a year to go out on a bag with that game. Anyone with a wheel and a hopper could shoot balls or dump 'em, that was a game that always left me in awe...

[Arefin Bari]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

...things only Wildstang can accomplish (10lb 40" ball anyone?)

Joe... not to start an argument here; but do you honestly think it is that hard to control the 40" ball (if yes, you need to sit down and think about this challenge a bit more)? Do you honestly think that there won't be many teams who will attempt and accomplish to control the 40" ball? Come on bro, it's a game, let's make it exciting. If you sit there and you have your mind set on the game being boring; it won't be nothing but boring for you.

[purduephotog]

Originally Posted by copperhead47

ok this is sort of a griping forum (read if you want- but if you are going to be insulted, please don't read further) for a variety of reasons this game can go wrong.
1. the "no defense" rule: how are you supposed to stop an opponent from scoring??? you let them?! i don't think so! this is going to be such a high scoring game! you think the judges wasted alot of time making decisions last year?! just wait.
2:you cannot lift your boom above 6 feet in the opponents area... how are you supposed to knock sown opponents balls at the end?! you might as well not bother trying to knock them off cuz you'll get penalized!!!!!
3: counterclockwise?? one direction?? what is this nonsense?! what happened to strategy?! they don't let us do anything now. its like communism we have to conform or die!! our drivers are gonna get dizzy just thinkin about it!!

"the game is only half stupid not fully stupid"

I appreciate the changes.

Last year I watched our team (I'm a mentor) get slammed from half court ramming speed. You could see one particular opponent gear shift, speed up, and just drill robots. The 'no ramming' rule was NEVER enforced. I watched a little 'tank' robot (cute little thing) take a hit that was hard enough to snap a 1/2" steel shaft pin- the firing mechanism (from 2 years ago) dangled through the entire match.

I have video of a 'claw' holding onto our robot's arm for well over 45 seconds- and they were assessed only a 10 point penalty whereas we were unable to score anything since they ripped an airline out.

In short, I've been watching 'battle bots' under the guise of gracious professionalism and 'win at any cost' masquerading as defense.

Some teams are very much dedicated and work throughout the year. They reuse code from year to year, have dedicated test platforms... it's nice to have a year of 'break' to recover and try to rebuild.

So please understand that when I hear how you can't run into people from behind and call it defense, or that when you can't slap an arm and call it defense I may be inclined to roll my eyes and smile.

This year you're just going to have to be faster and cooperate better than you've ever had to before.

In every other year each bot could be it's own team. This year there's only two balls and three robots- you've got to cooperate. You can't go out and solo. You need to be consider all tasks and pick the best ones for a good alliance.

Yes.... this will be an interesting year. I'm looking forward to it.

Now if we could just get a smaller court...