How many RoboCoach Commands?

[jtdowney]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Pressing two buttons in sequence is not the same as pressing two buttons at once.

Well then R65 also states

Active SIGNALING DEVICES shall:
* not use changes in the signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (e.g. Morse code)

Which rules out sending a sequence of button commands for one command.

[MrForbes]

Didn't I just explain how this does NOT increase the complexity of the message? (ie. it is not transmitting more than more 4 messages) I guess I did a lousy job the first time

Let's say you want to transmit for different commands, which are:

Drive straight
Turn left
Whack ball
Stop

First case: You could use a single button for each one

Drive straight = "1" button
Turn left = "2" button
Whack ball = "3" button
Stop = "4" button

Second case: You could make it use the sequential pressing of 3 buttons for each one:

Drive straight: press "2" button, then press "4" button, then press "1" button
Turn left: press "1" button, then press "3" button, then press "4" button
Whack ball: press "4" button, then press "2" button, then press "3" button
Stop: press "1" button, then press "2" button, then press "3" button

What is the message in each case?

In the first case, the first message is "Drive straight". In the second case, the first message is "Drive straight".

How is "Drive straight" a longer message than "Drive straight"?

I don't understand.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Didn't I just explain how this does NOT increase the complexity of the message? (ie. it is not transmitting more than more 4 messages)
...
How is "Drive straight" a longer message than "Drive straight"?

I don't understand.

"Drive straight" is not a message, it's an action. With the sequential button presses in your example you're obeying the "do no more than four actions" rule, but you're still violating the "don't use changes in signal states to send long messages" rule.

[johnr]

so who is going to confirm that six robots are doing exactly what is written on six small cards? six more refs? instant replay? gp?

[jtdowney]

We can sit here and argue semantics until the cows come in but I think the rules have very clearly stated the way the Hybrid mode should operate is you have 4 buttons that do 4 actions and those actions cannot change the actions the other buttons perform. It doesn't matter how complex or simple your IR commands are. Button 1 can only make it do one thing and the same with buttons 2 through 4.

[MrForbes]

I am doing the following things:

--using a maximum of four different inputs from the robocoach

--communicating no more than four messages, states, or conditions to the robot

--limiting the robot to react to four distinct commands

--I am helping to insure that the robot will only react to permitted signaling devices belonging to the assigned alliance


I am not doing any of the following prohibit things:

--switching between more than 4 states or conditions

--operating thru more than one input at a time

--using changes in signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (eg Morse code)

(note that morse code uses only two digits to encode the whole alphabet and number set, where I am using 4 different 3 character long sequences of 4 numbers to encode 4 different messages)

I still don't understand how this is a violation of any of the rules.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I am not doing any of the following prohibit things:
...
--using changes in signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (eg Morse code)

That is exactly what you are doing.

(note that morse code uses only two digits to encode the whole alphabet and number set, where I am using 4 different 3 character long sequences of 4 numbers to encode 4 different messages)

I still don't understand how this is a violation of any of the rules.

You said it yourself. You're using long sequences of numbers. You're using changes in signal states to encode larger messages. Your signals are "1", "2", "3", and "4". Your messages are "2 4 1", "1 3 4", etc. I see no way for you to legitimately claim that you're not sending a message encoded by multiple signals. The fact that you only define four of the possible 256 four-character messages doesn't alter the fact that you're using messages created by changes in signal states.

(Morse code actually uses a set of either three or four symbols, not two "digits", but that's beside the point.)

[MrForbes]

(I agree about Morse code, I didn't mention the short and long spaces)

What you say may be true, but could you please quote a rule that says so?

I can't find one.

[Nate Laverdure]

Sorry to be in the middle of this epic Morse code throwdown, but I have a thought:
Could a lack of a command also be a command? Would it count as one of the four?

Example: Press "1" and the robot does something. If no command is received in the next three seconds, the robot reverts to a previous behavior until another button is pushed.

In this example, you are technically sending information by not pressing a button within a time period. Would this count as a command?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

Sorry to be in the middle of this epic Morse code throwdown, but I have a thought:
Could a lack of a command also be a command? Would it count as one of the four?

Example: Press "1" and the robot does something. If no command is received in the next three seconds, the robot reverts to a previous behavior until another button is pushed.

In this example, you are technically sending information by not pressing a button within a time period. Would this count as a command?

Wouldn't that be very similar to a command "Move forward for 3 seconds"? That sounds legal.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by squirrel

What you say may be true, but could you please quote a rule that says so?
I can't find one.

<R65>. You've quoted it yourself. "...Active SIGNALING DEVICES shall:...be able to switch between no more than four states or conditions (i.e. send no more than four messages)...not use changes in the signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (e.g. Morse code)"

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Wouldn't that be very similar to a command "Move forward for 3 seconds"? That sounds legal.

OK, I agree with you. But here's how I can exploit this to gain an extra command:
Program 5 time slots into the 15-second hybrid mode. Within each 3-second time slot, a command must be received for the robot to do something. So a potential history of these time slots might look like this:

Time / Command
00:00 / 1
00:03 / 2
00:06 / 4
00:09 / 3
00:12 / 2

But what if I wanted to add an additional command to the system and remain below the refs' radar?

Time / Command
00:00 / 1
00:03 / No command sent
00:06 / 4
00:09 / 3
00:12 / 2

You could program the "No command sent" command to do anything, not just revert to previous behavior. Perhaps "No command sent" means "turn left." How many commands do I really have now?

[MrForbes]

I'll discuss the epic Morse code thing with Alan off line and see what we come up with....

Anyways, if your command set includes "if 4 is pressed within 3 seconds of 1 being pressed, then do the fourth thing, else do the fifth thing" then I think you are using 5 commands.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I'll discuss the epic Morse code thing with Alan off line and see what we come up with...

I've already quoted the applicable rule and shown why I think that your examples have at least one of the prohibited qualities. If you still don't think the rule applies, there's nothing more I can say, either in public or private, to convince you that your proposal breaks it.

[MrForbes]

I realize that, but I think it's because I can see a difference between a message and the coded signal used to transmit that message, and you apparently can't see that difference, or think it is irrelevant.

If anyone wants to play with the scheme I mentioned, I'd suggest asking about it in Q&A.