Beware of R16 your robot design may be too big.

[Paul Copioli]

This rule is very, very restrictive to robots trying to hurdle. This will be THE rule that has the most attention during the first week. We plan on bringing a 80" cylinder to St. Louis to show our robot fits in the volumne at all times .... that is if we can make a mechanism that actually works AND fits in the 80". Right now we can do one or the other, but not both.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

that is if we can make a mechanism that actually works AND fits in the 80". Right now we can do one or the other, but not both.

Somehow, I have faith in Paul's ability to crack this little problem and come up with a working solution that will - once again - knock our socks off. And if a bunch of folks with chickens on their shirts can do it...

-dave



.

[Dan Richardson]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Somehow, I have faith in Paul's ability to crack this little problem and come up with a working solution that will - once again - knock our socks off. And if a bunch of folks with chickens on their shirts can do it...

-dave



.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that in the last 9 hours I've had two aneurysms and blacked 32 other times due to this stinking rule. I actually almost had it once. And because of the loss of about 3.14 years of my life due to the mental strain I can officially claim that we still don't like this rule. :-( lol

For those of you not worried about this issue, I implore you make sure you check your design in every position, this really is quite the issue. I do agree this is an extraordinarily restrictive rule and as far as I can remember quite possibly the most restrictive as far as an individual task goes since I've been in FIRST.

Ohhh and p.s. your robots in the animation broke R16 too Dave :-P J/k but seriously..... bah humbug

[Kat Kononov]

<R13> For the purposes of determining compliance with the weight and volume limitations
specified in Rule <R11>, these items are NOT considered part of the ROBOT and are NOT
included in the weight and volume assessment of the ROBOT:
...
Any STANDARD BUMPER assemblies included on the ROBOT that are in
compliance with Rule <R08>, up to a maximum of 15 pounds,
...
However, for all other purposes the items listed above are considered part of the ROBOT
and must comply with all other applicable rules and requirements.

So, bumpers do count as part of the robot in <R16>. But, consider the fact that bumpers are only about 3in thick, and that you only need 2/3 of the robot covered with bumpers. Then, if you have a 38x28 robot, you can leave the back of the robot without bumpers, and thus only gain 3in in the front, not a whole 6in.

[Otaku]

It said it must fit within an 80" cylinder, it never said where the center was.

so by the wording you could have a robot quite a bit larger than you thought, however this'll probably be fixed.

So yes, for now, it does not say that the center of the 'bot is the center of the cylinder, just that it has to fit IN the cylinder. Nifty circumvention, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Dan Richardson]

Originally Posted by Otaku

It said it must fit within an 80" cylinder, it never said where the center was.

so by the wording you could have a robot quite a bit larger than you thought, however this'll probably be fixed.

So yes, for now, it does not say that the center of the 'bot is the center of the cylinder, just that it has to fit IN the cylinder. Nifty circumvention, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this, if you look at Madison's drawing it's pretty clear. The rule states that the robot at all times must fit in a 80" cylinder, no mater where the bot is located in the cylinder it must fit.

[Racer26]

I think he perhaps means have the cylinder be angled to the plane of the ground. Some portion of your robot could extend rather far, but not close to the ground, and some portion near the ground could not extend very high. Though I think thats a bit of a 'lawyering' of the rule.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I think he perhaps means have the cylinder be angled to the plane of the ground.

<R16> is pretty unambiguous about this. Horizontal dimension, upright cylinder... there's no way to work angles into this at all.

[Paul Copioli]

For those of you that think it is easy based on sketches ... I was there too until we actually prototyped something that is thick enough to be stiff enough and that is when we went "Ohhhhh .....".

If you use any rotational motion at all, be sure to check at the longest pont of projection. Our ball grabbing position is no problem, but the transitions are what are getting us. And no, we are not grabbing all the way around the ball.

Gary,

I guess I just refuse to make my drive geometry more complicated than it should be for a rule that looks like it was meant to prevent the "unfold and block" type defense.

All,

We have done many arms before and this one will absolutely be the most difficult (not complaining) simply due to the 80" rule.

I really just want to make sure everyone is aware of this very restrictive rule. I don't want the tape measure debacle of 2002 to happen again, because that will just irritate me and others who follow the rules from the start.

-Paul

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

For those of you that think it is easy based on sketches ... I was there too until we actually prototyped something that is thick enough to be stiff enough and that is when we went "Ohhhhh .....".

Very good point!

Fortunately the section at the end of the arm need not be very thick, as it is under little load. The section that needs to be thick is near the robot.

[Tom Line]

Squirrel, take a second look at your sketch. As Paul said - it's not actually grabbing the ball that is the problem. It's when you open your gripper that it's going to bite you, depending on where your hinge point is.

[MrForbes]

Yes, I understand the problem, that's why I drew the sketch with the gripper open.

[Paul Copioli]

This is a general warning to all who try to hurdle (we are feverishly designing right now and I have bruises on my head from beating it against the table):

1. EVERY year MOST teams underestimate how hard it is to manipulate the game piece. This year will be no exception.

2. For our team, this is BY FAR the hardest year to manipulate the game piece due to the 80" rule (it is up there without the rule).

3. Please, please make sure you are within the 80" no matter what as I see this rule being strictly enforced all season.

Don't say you weren't warned ...

-Paul

P.S. - Thanks Lavery ... I will be sending you my hospital bill.

[StevenB]

<R16> Once the MATCH has started, the ROBOT may assume a PLAYING CONFIGURATION that exceeds the size dimensions specified in Rule <R11>. While in the PLAYING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT may expand up to a maximum horizontal dimension of 80 inches (e.g. all parts of the ROBOT must fit within an imaginary 80-inch-diameter upright cylinder).

A maximum horizontal dimension of 80 inches and an 80 inch cylinder don't seem equivalent at all. For example, if my robot is an equilateral triangle with a side 80", then I have a maximum horizontal dimension of 80", but I don't fit into an 80" diameter cylinder.

with a cylinder whose center point is tangent to the ground and has a base perpendicular to the ground you can have a robot of INFINITE length! however it would only be able to go 40cm high and thats a semicircular shape