Picker Or Pickee

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 1/10/2000 3:46 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: down on the list of worries... posted by Jerry Eckert on 1/10/2000 1:05 AM MST:



Excellent point. Seeding Matches and the Elimination Matches celebrate and reward VERY different skills.

Perhaps this year more than ever, the general concensus view of a team's desireability as a partner and the seeding rank will have little to do with each other.

To my mind this is not a good thing.

Imagine if the rankings for the NCAA involved a similar kind of ranking method. Strange even to think about.

Joe J.

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 1/10/2000 4:38 PM MST


In Reply to: Yes, they are two different games... posted by Joe Johnson on 1/10/2000 3:46 AM MST:



You both are reading my mind on this one!

Lora Knepper
Team 69 (HYPER)

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Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Ypsilanti HS/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 1/10/2000 5:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Yes, they are two different games... posted by Joe Johnson on 1/10/2000 3:46 AM MST:



: Excellent point. Seeding Matches and the Elimination Matches celebrate and reward VERY different skills.

: Perhaps this year more than ever, the general concensus view of a team's desireability as a partner and the seeding rank will have little to do with each other.

: To my mind this is not a good thing.

This topic actually came up during our meeting today, and it was discussed as one of the things that will make scouting so important this year...there may be a team that is designed as a solely 'offensive' machine, and actually score in BOTH goals during the match to increase their QP ranking. It is these teams that really need to be looked for in scouting for possible allies during the elim rounds, because these are the same ones that will help to increase your score in the elim rounds by putting all those balls that they put into their opponent's goal earlier into their own in the elim rounds.

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team #483, BORG, from Berkeley High School and NASA Ames & UC Berkeley.

Posted on 1/10/2000 1:47 PM MST


In Reply to: down on the list of worries... posted by Joe Johnson on 1/9/2000 7:29 PM MST:



Joe, I agree.

However, I think FIRST agrees too, so they added rule SC-something (sorry don't have the rule book with me). A robot gets to drop its lowest scoring QM. Yay! You get one free fluke!

I think it's a good start. Considering the larger amount of matches to begin with, being able to drop one of the couple flukes you may have makes me feel better. Last year, GRT did really well at the cali regional but would have seeded even better if it could have dropped it's zero point round. That round was before the drivers had figured out how the robot worked. $@#$@#$@#$@# happens, yes?

Lastly, it doesn't MATTER what your seed is. If people know you have a good bot you WILL get picked because teams tend to research their top 10 or 15 picks. Even with that fluke of a match for GRT, we were picked by the number one seed -- they looked PAST that. So you see, the majority of good teams will get a shot at the trophy.


-DL


PS - remember that teams can pick other robots in the top 16 seeds so you don't loose your chance at being the first to pick anymore. You could get picked first! So the puzzle all fits together.

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team #483, BORG, from Berkeley High School and NASA Ames & UC Berkeley.

Posted on 1/10/2000 2:07 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: down on the list of worries... posted by Daniel on 1/10/2000 1:47 PM MST:



SC5.

At the conclusion of the qualification matches, each team will drop the QPs earned in their lowest QP match.

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team BORG (Berkeley Operational Robotics Group) from Berkeley High School sponsored by (working on the sponsor, too).

Posted on 1/9/2000 7:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Picker Or Pickee posted by Lora Knepper on 1/9/2000 7:19 PM MST:



Frankly, I don't really see the problem with having these so-called 'supper-alliances'. If these two robots are the best, they deserve the privalege of working together. After all, shouldn't the first prize be awarded to the best two robots? I'd be impressive to watch, and I'm sure there would still be VERY tough competition and VERY close matches. I have yet to see a year when there were two robots so dramatically better than all the others that when paired up, nobody would stand a chance. Remember: strategy is key.

Maybe? Maybe not?

-DL

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Posted by Raul.

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 1/9/2000 9:59 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Picker Or Pickee posted by Lora Knepper on 1/9/2000 7:19 PM MST:



I have to agree with Joe on this one. The odds of having the 16 best teams with the 16 highest QP's is astronomical. If you thought luck played a big role last year with alliance selections in seeding matches, wait until this year. With so many new teams, especially at the nationals, some very good teams are likely to be matched with a majority of not-so-good teams. We would need many more seeding matches.

What makes things worse is that with the scoring system for QP's (loser's score), the capabilities of your robot will be even less of a factor in determining how high you get seeded.

However, I am so happy that I can use any amount aluminum extrusion from the additional list that this wierd scoring system and its necessary strategy has not sunk in. For the first time in 4 years we will not require our welder to risk his health welding electrical conduit with its toxic coating!

No matter what, if you have a good robot, you increase your chances.

I also agree with Daniel - there will be enough good teams at the nationals to ensure it is not a blowout.

Just my two or three cents worth.

Raul

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team #483, BORG, from Berkeley High School and NASA Ames & UC Berkeley.

Posted on 1/10/2000 2:10 PM MST


In Reply to: This is Wierd - I agree with Joe posted by Raul on 1/9/2000 9:59 PM MST:



Tell me about these aluminum extrusions.

I get the concept: you run alluminum through a die that cuts a long bar into a specific shape. But what about the teams that don't have this capability?? Doesn't that make our job even harder? Or maybe there's a specific profile that's standard and good and buyable. What's the deal?

Thanks in advance for any info.

-DL

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 1/10/2000 6:07 PM MST


In Reply to: Aluminum extrusions. posted by Daniel on 1/10/2000 2:10 PM MST:



The aluminum extrustion rule is about as big of a loop hole in the Additional Hardware List as I have ever seen (and I LIKE IT! ;-).

It is my understanding that any constant section aluminum extrusion of any length can be used provided that it is 'off the shelf' (i.e. not a custom section extruded just for you) and its section is no bigger than 2 by 3.

This is HUGE!

There are a nearly unlimited variety available (many are available in sections intended for use with T-nuts, corner braces, etc.).

Good luck.

Joe J.

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Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Ypsilanti HS/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 1/10/2000 7:38 PM MST


In Reply to: They make it, you BUY it ;-) posted by Joe Johnson on 1/10/2000 6:07 PM MST:



Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from how I'm reading the AHL this year, it seems like that for just about everything, we're allowed any amount we want...and without it digging into our $425 for a change! Looks good to me... =)

Nate

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team BORG (Berkeley Operational Robotics Group) from Berkeley High School sponsored by (working on the sponsor, too).

Posted on 1/10/2000 8:25 PM MST


In Reply to: And that's not all... posted by Nate Smith on 1/10/2000 7:38 PM MST:



You're right. Thought my team can't even afford to buy $425 worth of stuff, let alone 'any amount we want'. AHHHH!!! =)

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 1/10/2000 9:33 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: And that's not all... posted by Daniel on 1/10/2000 8:25 PM MST:



I wouldn't worry, I expect to have a lot of fun getting to play with you guys this year! ;-) And if you need any help while in competiton, stop by pit 69 and we'll help you with anything we can.

Good Luck,
Lora Knepper
Team 69 (HYPER)

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team BORG (Berkeley Operational Robotics Group) from Berkeley High School sponsored by (working on the sponsor, too).

Posted on 1/10/2000 11:01 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: And that's not all... posted by Lora Knepper on 1/10/2000 9:33 PM MST:



Thanks =)

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 1/10/2000 11:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: And that's not all... posted by Daniel on 1/10/2000 8:25 PM MST:



Like Raul & Joe, I was actually cheering when I read about FIRST letting us use aluminum extrusions... thanks FIRST!

I've been using aluminum extrusions for designing machines at Delphi for the past seven years. So, for what it's worth, here are my opinions & suggestions.

1. What type should you use?
Like Joe said, there are these types with t-slots in them. These are what I suggest. There are four main companies who make the same type of extrusion:
.....Item Products (all over US)
.....Item MB (German, original maker, smaller US presence)
.....ParFrame (Parker Hannifin, all over US)
.....80/20 (metric type...all over midwest)

These four types are mostly interchangeable... but not completely. Item MB has the best selection, and they can distribute out of Dayton, OH. They all have lowered their prices considerably during the past 3 years... competition is getting fierce.

I would bet money that most distributors of these components would donate a decent amount of extrusions and simple fasteners to your FIRST team. Just tell them that they are dealing with prospective engineering students who know little about aluminum extrusions and let them give a 1/2 hour 'speel' on their extrusion product.

These extrusion companies have very good catologs that take a while to understand all that is available. Also, these catalogs will tell you how to use their extrusions, fasteners and joining plates.

Get yourself educated about these extrusions and use them. As you can see, we'll use them, along with Wildstang and ChiefDelphi... so you better get some yourself. Beg and plead if you must... just use them.

Think about it... high strength, pre-fabbed, lightweight sticks with adjustable fasteners and neat-o bearing possiblilites with the t-slots.... woof!

Check out these companies sites (see links below).
www.item-products.com
www.8020.net

Good luck,
Andy B.

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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Other on team #246, a FIRST-aholic, from John D. O'Byrant High School/Boston Latin Academy/Madison HS and NSTAR/Boston University/Wentworth Institute of Technology/MassPEP.

Posted on 1/9/2000 9:30 PM MST


In Reply to: Picker Or Pickee posted by Bill Beatty on 1/9/2000 6:57 PM MST:



.. i'm glad you think that my old team and Team Hammond would have made a champion alliance.. it would have been a pleasure :-)

now i have a question on the point you just made (may have missed this in the rule).. but as you said, as #2 seed, you could graciously decline the #1 seed's offer - however, would that decline take you out of the finals all together? by way of rule GM26 'Teams may decline an offer when asked to ally for the elimination matches, however if a team declines they are no longer eligible to be chosen...' I know it says that they can't be chosen- but in the idea in which FIRST developed that rule, it is feeling that declining an offer basically declines you the chance to compete in finals..

what do you think FIRST is looking for? and what do you guys think they'd do in that case?