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Unread 28-01-2008, 08:41
Anne Shade Anne Shade is offline
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Re: <R16> penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by skimoose View Post
If you look at any of the game rules which can cause penalties, they don't specify the 10 points, the penalty detriment is defined in the definitions. Also, some rules violations are immediate DQ. Try running a robot at 20 pounds over weight. No one is going to let you compete in that condition, and if you do get on the field and are caught your alliance is DQ'd.
The manual does not need to state the worth of a penalty for each infraction but it does indeed need to specify what can receive a penalties. Penalties are always assigned to specific rules in the game section, not the robot section. The referees are not responsible for robot construction rules and have never been, that why the inspectors are there. If a penalty is not listed, then it cannot be given (and this year, only the word PENALTY needs to appear). The Q&A answer further substanciates this. It never mentions a penalty, only a yellow flag.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skimoose View Post
If you can be yellow carded for a violation, you can receive a penalty for that offense. Penalties are suppose to discourage teams from the offending action. The penalty should be a warning to fix your actions immediately.

A yellow card is a MUCH harsher consequense for violating the 80" rule, so if FIRST's intention is to only issue yellow cards for this violation, then you'd better heed my warnings even more. The next step after a yellow card, is a red card. I'd never want to risk that.

Instead of trying to lawyer the rules, just ask the Q&A in plain english "will violating the 80" rule cause a 10 point penalty and/or an immediate yellow card".

All I know is we won't be sweating this rule. We saw the implications immediately, and designed accordingly.

Good Luck teams.
I understand your point and agree that the one way to avoid penalties is to design accordingly. The problem is the same as it was last year, how can referees determine if you've reached outside of 80" during gameplay? How can they duplicate the position of your robot at the moment they think you may have reached beyond 80"? What if your stops are programming based, how can you prove they actually were performing properly during that particular match? The refs have to go by what they see and what you see in that millisecond during a match with 6 robots on the field.... I know from experience how impossible of a task that is.
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  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-01-2008, 13:35
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GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
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Re: <R16> penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne Shade View Post
The manual does not need to state the worth of a penalty for each infraction but it does indeed need to specify what can receive a penalties. Penalties are always assigned to specific rules in the game section, not the robot section. The referees are not responsible for robot construction rules and have never been, that why the inspectors are there. If a penalty is not listed, then it cannot be given (and this year, only the word PENALTY needs to appear). The Q&A answer further substanciates this. It never mentions a penalty, only a yellow flag.




I understand your point and agree that the one way to avoid penalties is to design accordingly. The problem is the same as it was last year, how can referees determine if you've reached outside of 80" during gameplay? How can they duplicate the position of your robot at the moment they think you may have reached beyond 80"? What if your stops are programming based, how can you prove they actually were performing properly during that particular match? The refs have to go by what they see and what you see in that millisecond during a match with 6 robots on the field.... I know from experience how impossible of a task that is.

Thanks, Anne. It's my belief too that if a rule doesn't say PENALTY, then there is none. Prior to the answer in Q&A, there was no provision for any sanction for a violation of <R16>. It would not have been good to go into Week 1 Regionals and have every ref crew come up with their own interpretation of sanctions for <R16>. Let alone the difficulty of being sure the 80" was violated.

Everyone should give the refs credit. They have to make sizing decisions all the time, even on things that have been inspected. You made your robot fit inside the box and passed inspection, but now for some reason its too large when you take the field on Friday. Who notices? - the referees. And last year, there was not a 72x72" box for the refs to measure with. Granted, exceeding the 72" was generally because of premature ramp deployments, and the ramps stayed deployed. That was easier than judging 80", up in the air, as an arm arcs through its range of movement. But I'm confident they will do the job correctly once again.
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