Re:Team Update #7 is out!

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Posted by Makana.

Student on team #359 from Waialua High School.

Posted on 2/3/2000 9:28 PM MST



Hi,
I was wondering about the clarification of rule SC1,
does this mean if we have a piece of sheet metal or
another substance over 1/8'' thick and our alliance
partner rolls onto it, will our alliance recieve the 10
points.
And another additional question, if our interpertation
of the rule is correct. If our opponent roles up onto
our ramp who will recieve the poin

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 2/4/2000 4:14 AM MST


In Reply to: Re:Team Update #7 is out! posted by Makana on 2/3/2000 9:28 PM MST:



I don't think the 1/8 inch rule applies if you have a sheet of metal or some other material that another robot drives up on. In this case, I think they would say that the robot is obviously off the floor or help up by another robot and therefor a measurement is not required.

As to an opponent robot getting on your magic carpet, I think the rules are pretty clear, they would get 10 points added to their score for that match.

But, then again, it MAY mean more points for you if by points you mean Qualifying Points. If they drive onto your machine and get an extra 10 points for their team but the 10 points is not enough to prevent you from winning then by the magic of Dean & Woodie's new system, 10 match points for THEM turns into 30 Qualifying Points for YOU.

This is going to be a very weird competition...

Joe J>

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Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 2/4/2000 9:32 PM MST


In Reply to: 1/8 inch rule used only if not obvious posted by Joe Johnson on 2/4/2000 4:14 AM MST:



The way I see it is this
the only points you get for being off the ground come from either being on the ramp hanging off the bar or if YOUR alliance partner GETS YOU off the ground.

being so

you would not get 10 points for driving onto the 1/8' bar unless it is attached to your alliance partner and if your opponant drove onto your robots ramp that was ment for your alliance partner then he would get no points but he would be blocking your alliance partner from using the ramp on your robot.

Justin Stiltner

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Posted by Jerry Eckert.

Engineer from Looking for a team in Raleigh, NC sponsored by .

Posted on 2/4/2000 9:55 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 1/8 inch rule used only if not obvious posted by Justin Stiltner on 2/4/2000 9:32 PM MST:



: The way I see it is this
: the only points you get for being off the ground come from either being on the ramp hanging off the bar or if YOUR alliance partner GETS YOU off the ground.

: being so

: you would not get 10 points for driving onto the 1/8' bar unless it is attached to your alliance partner and if your opponant drove onto your robots ramp that was ment for your alliance partner then he would get no points but he would be blocking your alliance partner from using the ramp on your robot.


Your interpretation is incorrect. See Q25 in Team Update #2.

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Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 2/5/2000 12:39 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: 1/8 inch rule used only if not obvious posted by Jerry Eckert on 2/4/2000 9:55 PM MST:



I think Eric needs to clarify this...
because in the original rules it says 'or can be picked up by IT'S alliance partner.'
but update 2 would change it to

'or can be picked up by another robot'
which is forbidden by rule DQ12'lifting of an poopnets robot off the carped floor is a disqualifying offense. Robots are only allowed to picup their ALLIANCE PARTNER for scoring purposes'

wouldent your opponant driving up onto your robot be considered pinning also

but I could be wrong im only human
Justin Stiltner
Team 388

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Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 2/5/2000 12:52 AM MST


In Reply to: Eric please read posted by Justin Stiltner on 2/5/2000 12:39 AM MST:



I would also like to call your attention to A 179 in update 7 'In Rule SC1 part 3 it is worded that you must either hang from the center bar OR be picked up by your partner. If you were to drive up on a pile of balls (and not damage them), you may be off the floor but would not be picked up by your partner and there fore would not earn the 10 points.'

Justin Stiltner
Team 388

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Posted by Jerry Eckert.

Engineer from Looking for a team in Raleigh, NC sponsored by .

Posted on 2/5/2000 8:41 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Eric please read posted by Justin Stiltner on 2/5/2000 12:52 AM MST:



: I would also like to call your attention to A 179 in update 7 'In Rule SC1 part 3 it is worded that you must either hang from the center bar OR be picked up by your partner. If you were to drive up on a pile of balls (and not damage them), you may be off the floor but would not be picked up by your partner and there fore would not earn the 10 points.'

: Justin Stiltner
: Team 388

If you want an official answer from FIRST you should send E-mail to Eric (ear@usfirst.org), Andrea Calvo (acalvo@usfirst.org), or Frank Melanson (frankm@usfirst.org) or telephone them at (800)871-8362 x107, x110, or x 109, respectively. You'll get an official answer much sooner than posting it here.

I don't see anything in A179 which invalidates A25.

Eric stated somewhere (I'm not sure if it was posted here or in one of the TUs, but I can't find it at the moment) that the rule against lifting or hanging from an opposing robot was added because of the risk of damaging the other robot; driving onto an opposing robot's ramp is allowed because the ramp is presumably designed to accomodate just that thus there is less risk of damage.

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Posted by Justin Stiltner.

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

Posted on 2/5/2000 12:41 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: 1/8 inch rule used only if not obvious posted by Jerry Eckert on 2/4/2000 9:55 PM MST:



oops dident hit stop in time hehe

I think Eric needs to clarify this...
because in the original rules it says 'or can be picked up by IT'S alliance partner.'
but update 2 would change it to

'or can be picked up by another robot'
which is forbidden by rule DQ12'lifting of an oponets robot off the carpeted floor is a disqualifying offense. Robots are only allowed to pickup their ALLIANCE PARTNER for scoring purposes'

Wouldent your opponant driving up onto your robot be considered pinning also

I could be wrong im only human
Justin Stiltner
Team 388

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Posted by Eric Rasmussen.

Engineer from FIRST.

Posted on 2/5/2000 11:15 AM MST


In Reply to: dont read the other one read this one posted by Justin Stiltner on 2/5/2000 12:41 AM MST:



I just got done responding to this in email. Here's what I said:

You have indeed found an inconsistency in our answers. Thank you for pointing it out.

The inconsistency lies in A179 (Team Update #7) which states that, in order to score 10 points, it has to be your alliance partner that picks you up if you are not hanging from the bar over the ramp. We already stated earlier in Q25 that it was ok for a robot to drive onto the ramp of an opposing alliance's robot in order to score 10 points, and will stick by the answer given in Q25.

Regarding DQ12 and lifting an opponent's robot, we are making an important distinction between 'lifting' and 'climbing on'. When robot A drives onto a ramp on robot B that is designed to support a robot, we do not consider robot B to be lifting robot A. This is because robot A is the primary one causing the action and it is likely to only gain a small amount of altitude above the playing field. We feel that the use of these ramps is unlikely to result in damage to either robot, so it is ok. What we do consider lifting is if robot B has a forklift or overhead crane type of lifting mechanism and it tries to use it's own motors and/or pneumatics to pick robot A up off the floor. We consider that much more likely to cause damage, and is why we only allow alliance partners to lift each other. Otherwise, we feel that there is too much potential for 'oops, I was TRYING to help the other alliance, I didn't think I would drop them or their arm would rip off as I tried to pull them up.'

We do not consider it 'pinning' if an opposing robot drives onto your ramp. Pinning applies only to holding a robot still against a playing field feature, such as the field border (see DQ7). Pushing a robot off your robot's ramp in order to allow another to climb on is ok, just as is pushing robots off the field ramp. Basically, having a ramp on your robot is a double-edged sword.

-Eric

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Posted by Quentin Lewis.

Engineer on team #42, P.A.R.T.S - Prececision Alvirne Robotics Technology Systems, from Alvirne, Hudson NH.

Posted on 2/5/2000 7:27 PM MST


In Reply to: Only Human posted by Eric Rasmussen on 2/5/2000 11:15 AM MST:




>The inconsistency lies in A179 (Team Update #7) which states that, in
> order to score 10 points, it has to be your alliance partner that picks
> you up if you are not hanging from the bar over the ramp.
> We already stated earlier in Q25 that it was ok for a robot to drive
> onto the ramp of an opposing alliance's robot in order to score
> 10 points, and will stick by the answer given in Q25.


What penalty will I get if an opponent climbs up onto my ramp, and I lift my ramp in order to remove them, or to simply move away from them....but in the process of lifing my ramp, my opponent is flipped over on its back...helpless like a flailing turtle?

Do I get penalized?

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 2/5/2000 8:21 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Only Human (until you climb on my ramp that is....) posted by Quentin Lewis on 2/5/2000 7:27 PM MST:



I don't think that in the case you describe any penalty at all would be assessed.

Joe J.

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team #483, BORG, from Berkeley High School and NASA Ames & UC Berkeley.

Posted on 2/6/2000 1:57 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Only Human (until you climb on my ramp that is....) posted by Quentin Lewis on 2/5/2000 7:27 PM MST:



They should have thought about that when they got on your ramp in the first place ;-)

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Posted by Eric Rasmussen.

Engineer from FIRST.

Posted on 2/6/2000 7:05 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Only Human (until you climb on my ramp that is....) posted by Quentin Lewis on 2/5/2000 7:27 PM MST:



: : What penalty will I get if an opponent climbs up onto my ramp, and I lift my ramp in order to remove them, or to simply move away from them....but in the process of lifing my ramp, my opponent is flipped over on its back...helpless like a flailing turtle?

: Do I get penalized?

See A159 in Team Update #5.

-Eric