YMTC: Bluateam Uses Old Pixels

[lynca]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Many, MANY, MANY teams design something preseason, anticipating a game that will suit whatever they design. I've seen hundreds of "off-season" projects posted on CD, then re-made and put on to a robot.

I agree that I have seen quite a bit of design and re-work going on around FIRST and for many robotics competitions. I think teams should be designing and prototyping ideas before a build season. I understand that R28 states that designing parts for the robot before build is not allowed.

However , I think the GDC should totally remove R28 next year, because that rule discourages teams from designing in the off-season.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by lynca

I think teams should be designing and prototyping ideas before a build season.

But it is important that we understand the difference between this and what is prohibited in Section 8.3.4 and by Rule <R28>. Off-season development of ideas, proof-of-concept builds, construction of prototypes, engineering models, etc. are all great things to do. Teams should be encouraged to exercise as many of these options as they can. Fortunately, Section 8.3.4 does not prevent them from doing so.

-dave




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[lynca]

Originally Posted by dlavery

But it is important that we understand the difference between this and what is prohibited in Section 8.3.4 and by Rule <R28>. Off-season development of ideas, proof-of-concept builds, construction of prototypes, engineering models, etc. are all great things to do. Teams should be encouraged to exercise as many of these options as they can. Fortunately, Section 8.3.4 does not prevent them from doing so.
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I agree that R28 does not specifically address the pre-season building and ideas. Therefore I retract my previous statement of totally removing R28. However R28 does mention "design and fabricate" and I think design should be stricken from that rule because teams should be able to "design" before the build season. Detailed designs are somewhat suspect as mentioned by the manual , but "design" only in the Build season from R28 seems too vague.

Personally, I'd be all for them using the wheel design. The student is still learning (albeit a little bit differently, but they're still learning), and so there shouldn't be much to discourage this. Besides, if the wheel was to be designed the same way, wouldn't there be no traceable differences between the two? So why re-draw a part you've already drawn, if it won't change?

Not too sure about the rules, but morally, assuming it's not an entire robot, I have no issues with them rolling out the new wheels.

[Richard Wallace]

I voted Hold, because I think Alan's view of <R28> is correct.

Pre-kickoff exercises are a great way to kick-start a team's season, and as Dave pointed out there is no prohibition on such exercises in the 2008 rules. Many of us feel they should be encouraged. Thinking should never be against the rules of FIRST, or any other rules in my view.

I've used revisions of pre-kickoff designs on several FRC robots. The design revisions were always made to correct (or attempt to correct) a perceived defect in the pre-kickoff design. Since neither I nor my team has ever designed a perfect part, I/we have always been able to identify helpful revisions to pre-kickoff designs. 'Defects' could be functional ones such as a structural weakness, or fabrication related such as small fit tolerances or extra machining steps.

In my experience, by the time one of my or my team's designs gets close enough to perfect that revisons aren't needed, that design has become a standard production item for some supplier -- so it's faster and cheaper to buy it than to make it. As the old engineer's saying goes, better is the enemy of good enough.

The difficulty arises when a team decides, for sound reasons, that a pre-kickoff design is good enough -- but that design is not available as a COTS item. Does such a decision itself constitute design? (My answer is emphatically "sometimes".) IF the GDC were to reach a consensus that it does, THEN they should rewrite <R28>.