pic: Team 1114 Teaser

[Lil' Lavery]

I fail to notice anything unusual. Bad teaser.

[Pat Fairbank]

Hmm, interesting. I have visited 1114's shop on occasion, and I know for a fact that the black square in the top left of the photo is concealing a poster depicting their "SimSwerve" design from 2004. Could this be a hint about 1114's drivetrain?

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I fail to notice anything unusual. Bad teaser.

I was thinking more like "bad visual" in general. Now, where's the number for my therapist...

[emo Sponge]

can everybody stop with the stupid teasers

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by emo Sponge

can everybody stop with the stupid teasers

lol teasers are fun, if you dont like them dont participate in them

[thefro526]

I think that simbotics is going to own at every compitition again this year and then treat us all to spring water to replenish all of the water that we have cried out because of their awesomeness

[1219forlife]

I am going to go with that the mentors designed and built them another robot..... and i can gaurantee it. You all know its true.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by 1219forlife

I am going to go with that the mentors designed and built them another robot..... and i can gaurantee it. You all know its true.

Just because they turn out great robots year after year dosen't mean that they have mentors and engineers doing everything. *Gasp* maybe the mentors are....mentoring, guiding and teaching the students how to design and build great robots. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this, as the "student run" thing is not written down anywhere in the FRC rules, but I believe that, as long as both the students and mentors are learning and having fun, and the students understand the robot as well as the mentors, the team is being run the right way.

When I was in FLL as a student for six years, there were a few teams (not going to name names) who would almost always win in performance at our regional, because college engineering teachers built their robot. I was dissappointed in not winning, not because we were being beaten, but because we were being beaten by a team whose students clearly only had a vague understanding of their own robot. This isn't right.

Last year, I graduated from FLL student, and went on to mentor another FLL team. I swore to myself going into it that I would not put my hand on the robot once. I succeded in following this. However, the team's "student only" policy restricted me much more than that. Ideas were thrown out for the sole reason "Joe supports this, it isn't following the student-only policy." I spent 98% of the meeting time firing blow-darts at the wall. Only when the students were absolutely desperate was I called on to help. This isn't right either.

The mentors are there to teach. If the students aren't learning, and the mentors are just locked in the shop building without any input, than that isn't good. But if the students are learning from those with experience, and by the end of the season know the robot inside and out, know why everything is the way it is, have learned about engineering, and most importantly, are inspired to follow in their mentor's footsteps, then everything is fine, even if mentors are operating all the mills.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by 1219forlife

I am going to go with that the mentors designed and built them another robot..... and i can guarantee it. You all know its true.

every team functions in different ways and there is nothing wrong with that. The only people who know exactly how a team functions are the team itself, and I don't think this teaser shows anything to merit this comment.


On a side note I was browsing 1114's server the other day and I found this picture called "2008t-shirt.jpg" I'll see if I can attach it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by 1219forlife

first of all i think it should be a student run team or at least a mostly run student team. Having the mentors do everything for them teaches them nothing.

If you want a student/mentor debate, search first! This has come up before. Express your opinion on the subject in one of those threads. But read the thread first!

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by 1219forlife

I am going to go with that the mentors designed and built them another robot..... and i can gaurantee it. You all know its true.

Actually, all I know is their build kids are some of the most actively involved and knowledgable students around. I can't count the times I've seen them elbows deep in their robot, maintaining it or making repairs. I would venture to guess this capable involvement extends to the shop during build season.

And as far as using their mentor design talents to create a high quality machine each year, as Dave Lavery and others have stressed, that's kinda the point, as professional involvement in FIRST is the fountainhead of engineering inspiration.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by 1219forlife

I am going to go with that the mentors designed and built them another robot..... and i can gaurantee it. You all know its true.

Well this is a wonderful post. Before I delve into this ridiculous content of this post, I'd just like to remind you that when you post on this forum you not only represent yourself, but your entire team. Team 1114 has had a very positive relationship with the students and teachers of 1219 over the years. I would be shocked if your entire team actually felt this way about 1114.

I'm glad you make guarantees about things you have no knowledge about. Have you visited our shop before? It's open to all local teams to use whenever they want. Actually, this past weekend our students were busy making parts for Team 2166, a local team that we've been mentoring. You might want to ask them about how our team operates. Or maybe you want to continue making baseless assumptions.

I will never deny the involvement of the 1114 mentor base. I'm not ashamed of it in the slightest. We have an amazing group of mentors who work hand in hand with our students, working towards the mission of FIRST. Why is this a bad thing? Please take the time to read this post by Dave Lavery. FIRST was never intended to be a student only science fair, as you may desire. Yes our mentors are involved in the design and building of the robot. We feel this is the best way to teach and inspire each and every student on Team 1114. Last year we even started a new program, called "Big Simbot, Little Simbot". Each 1114 student is paired with an adult mentor who is their aid, their confidante and their friend. This relationship is about more than just robotics, it is about providing role models and inspiration. But, I guess that sounds pretty dumb to you. I mean, why would we want to try and inspire our students. Its not like that is the mission of FIRST or anything...

If you'd like to learn more about our team, please don't hesitate to contact us. I'd love to go over our team handbook, where we detail our "roadmap to success", to help teach you about our model for a FIRST team. I've always stood by a team's right to run their team however they want. If you think your team should be all student run, go for it. But down here in St. Catharines we're very proud of how our team operates, and it's proved very successful. The success I'm talking about isn't our regional wins, but the amazing stories our graduates have after leaving the team. We've found a way to leave an indelible impact on each kid who passes through these doors. Could that really be such a bad thing?

Good luck on your roadmap to success, hopefully we'll see you on the field or in the pits.

[Kate00]

Originally Posted by Dave Lavery, the Kickoff Broadcast

DEAN MENTIONED ALREADY IF YOU THINK THE PROGRAM IS ABOUT ROBOTS YOU'RE MISSING PART OF THE MESSAGE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF TEAMS OUT THERE, AND I KNOW I'LL HEAR BACK FROM THEM ABOUT THIS, THERE ARE A LOT OF TEAMS OUT THERE WHO ARE BUILT SOLELY OF STUDENTS AS A STUDENT-BUILT, STUDENT-RUN, STUDENT-ORGANIZED TEAM FROM END TO END TO THE PROCESS.
I CONGRATULATE THEM WHAT THEY'RE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH AND DO.
THEY'RE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE WITH NO PROBLEM AT ALL.
DO THE TASK WE'RE SETTING OUT FOR THEM.
IF YOU THINK THE TASK IS ABOUT BUILDING A ROBOT.
MY CHALLENGE TO THE TEAMS IS, PART OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS GET YOU EXPOSED TO REAL WORLD TECHNOLOGIES PRACTICES, PEOPLE WHO ARE PROFESSIONALS.
IF YOU'RE DOING THIS WITH YOUR TEAM YOU'RE ABLE TO BUILD THE ROBOT AND ABLE TO COMPETE AND BE ABLE TO BE A PARTICIPANT IN THE PROGRAM BUT I THINK YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN ENGINEERING ON YOUR TEAM OR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR BECAUSE YOU AREN'T TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPOSE YOUR TEAM AND YOUR STUDENTS TO REAL WORLD ENGINEERING PRACTICES TO LEARN TO BE INSPIRED BY THE PROFESSIONALS TO WHICH YOU HAVE ACCESS.
SO IS THIS A HARD PROBLEM?
YES.
IT'S SUPPOSED HARD.
WE'RE MAKING IT HARD BECAUSE WE WANT YOU TO BE ENCOURAGED TO GO OUT AND GET PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING HELP FOR YOUR TEAMS TO HELP SOLVE THIS STUFF.
THAT'S HOW YOU'RE GOING TO GET THE MOST BENEFIT OUT OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM.

It has been made extremely clear how FIRST feels about mentor involvement. In my mind, this leaves no doubt that even what you allege 1114 is doing, no matter how far it is from the truth, is not something to be frowned upon.

That being said, it is very far from the truth. As I have said before, I have had the tremendous opportunity to work with team 1114, and see how their team works. In no way do their mentors design and build them a robot – to the contrary, the times I have been to their shop, the mentors sit in a room outside the shop, not doing very much, while the students work hard in the shop at fabricating parts for their robot. If a student needs help with something, a mentor is instantly there to help them, however, in no way do the mentors build the robot for them. I have no personal experience with their design process for their robot, but when they helped my former team and I design ramps to be built from scratch over the course of a regional, we were very much involved in the process. Their mentors and students (who were as knowledgeable of the design process as the mentors, I might add) helped us sort through our ideas, make them possible, and execute them, in the course of three days. As students, we could not have done it on our own. In no way did their mentors do it for us. With the help and assistance of those mentors, we created ramps that might not have been the prettiest, but certainly worked very well. Students on my team learned more from working with their programming, electrical, mechanical and strategy mentors over those three days than we did over an entire build season. We were inspired. As a matter of fact, after the experience, one of our graduating members lamented that she had not had the foresight to apply to engineering at university, and is still trying to switch her program. Isn’t that what FIRST is about? Inspiration, and exposure to industry professionals?

Karthik, I think you got this wrong:

Originally Posted by Karthik

Have you visited our shop before? It's open to all local teams to use whenever they want.

As seen here, it’s not just local teams who your shop is open to, it’s any team who needs any help whatsoever.

Please, if any of you have a chance, take Karthik up on his offer to drop into the 1114 shop. It’s not just a shop that a robot comes out of – it’s a shop where unadulterated inspiration comes out of.

[thefro526]

I think that what 1114 does is excellent. In any case there is no reason to be mad at any team where the mentors build the entire robot, my teams robot is 99% student built is that good yes, but I'd love to have some talented machinists working with us to help make some cool parts but I see noting wrong with mentors building robots. As long as good bonds are being made between mentors and students it what first is about. I might have to take a roadtrip to visit 1114 sometime...

[Kate00]

(I was going to add this in as an edit to my previous post, but I felt that it really needed to stand alone.)

I think it's terrible that 1114 has to deal with these allegations at least once a year. They do great things for their students, that's apparent through all of the posts that are remotely informed on these boards. Get over it, guys. Stop picking on teams for doing things you think are wrong. Do your research - the organization you're participating in doesn't think they're wrong. Stop making unfounded allegations. Try and bring yourself up to their level, as opposed to bringing them down to yours.

If you really want to show that a team that is more student-driven is just as good as a mentor-driven one, then focus your efforts on building an amazing robot, spreading the message of FIRST and inspiring students, and show us on the field that your robots are just as good, show us in your chairmans submissions that you do a just as good a job of inspiring students and spreading the message of FIRST. Trash-talking on these forums will not do anything.

If you can do what the program is all about just as well as they can, then why are you complaining? They inspire their students and build robots just as well as you can - who cares how they do it? I'm pretty sure they don't care how YOU do it. They aren't trying to force you to become more mentor-driven, why should you try to force them into becoming more student driven?

If you can't do what the program is about just as well as they can with your current set up, think about changing your set up. If you don't want to change your set up, and all you want to do is complain, find another organization. Maybe a science fair.

In my opinion, 1114 has become one of the most maligned teams in FIRST, just for doing what they can to inspire students. How is that right?