quick question to all about why using KOP metal.

[CuriousGeorge]

but i wouldnt wanna risk my robot breaking just because its somewhat lighter (the team i was with always used a welding frame) and the robot i built broke KOP bots frequently.

now if i knew this would happen (even a slim chance) i would change my gameplan quite quickly.

so why do teams risk it? (i understand if u cant due to not having some resources.. but if you DO have them.. why arent u using them?)

[chris31]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

but i wouldnt wanna risk my robot breaking just because its somewhat lighter (the team i was with always used a welding frame) and the robot i built broke KOP bots frequently.

now if i knew this would happen (even a slim chance) i would change my gameplan quite quickly.

so why do teams risk it? (i understand if u cant due to not having some resources.. but if you DO have them.. why arent u using them?)

Really? How often would you "break" KOP frames? Its not really that easy if you have bumpers and its built right.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

but i wouldnt wanna risk my robot breaking just because its somewhat lighter (the team i was with always used a welding frame) and the robot i built broke KOP bots frequently.

now if i knew this would happen (even a slim chance) i would change my game plan quite quickly.

so why do teams risk it? (i understand if u cant due to not having some resources.. but if you DO have them.. why aren't u using them?)

What do yo mean broke KOP frame teams?

what is the goal you are trying to get at with this thread, and what team were you on previously?

Why don't you ask some of these teams who have used the KOP chassis...

121, 148, 229, 2056....

so in the end it has been tested by some of the top teams and have been used by so many others, why waste time and man power and cost? the KOP chassis is something that is in the kit and can be assembled in ONE meeting, the day of kickoff. it's an excellent frame for teams with a low budget, not many engineers or any of that, and in the end it's given to you!

[Vikesrock]

As one of one of the rougher "enforcer bots" at the Wisconsin regional last year, I can say that our KOP from shows no signs of being worse for the wear. This is despite running with no bumpers for a few matches and running without the endcaps (clearance was too low to climb ramps) for all of the elim matches.

We through everything I thought the KOP frame would handle at it, plus quite a bit more and I don't see any signs of budging an inch.

Having said that, the reason we use it is that it is cheap (free) and easy to machine (it already has many holes in it) for a team without complex machining and welding capabilities.

[CuriousGeorge]

well if u have one high torqued robot pressing against a KOP bot (which happened in 06 for me) it could break, i did it myself.. i drove the robot.

ive also see some KOP robots run str8 into walls and fall apart

what im trying to figure out with this thread is why people use KOP bots.. i personally dot understand it

[Joe G.]

I personally have never seen a kitbot fall apart, and I have seen multiple welds break under situations like those you have described. The kit metal itself is more than strong enough. Loose bolts due to lack of loctite, etc, might cause problems, but I have seen no evidence that there are unavoidable flaws in the basic concept/structure of the kitbot. Until I see this, our team will probably continue using it in some form, and encourage others to do the same.

[ChrisMcK2186]

Wow, interesting thread.

We used the KOP last year and had good results. It survived being run full speed into the opposite wall during every match, our programmers are still puzzled.

Why do people use it?

1)Free
2)easy to use
3)easy to access nuts/bolts for it
4)it is easy to maintain
5)no machining required
6)no welding required
7)not made of unobtainium

Any more questions?

Chris McKenzie
2186

[Evert]

we used the KOP frame last year and our using it again this year.

Last year, our robot defended without bumpers and we had no problems with the frame. I've seen in run into a wall at full speed with no problems.

It also doesn't cost us anything which is good.

[CuriousGeorge]

we broke one robot at the joints (this i know was bolts and such)

and one robot snapped at the front KOP bar trying to run into us as we ran into them

also made one robots side KOP bar bend severly from the side

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

we broke one robot at the joints (this i know was bolts and such)

and one robot snapped at the front KOP bar trying to run into us as we ran into them

also made one robots side KOP bar bend severly from the side

This thread seems to be going in cirlces. CuriousGeorge doesn't seem to me that he will be convinced that the KOP frame is a great frame, when biult and reinforced properly.

We have been using it for 3 years now and have not had any issues, when it was biult properly. We chopped it up a little for Aim High and had some bowing issues. Last year no problems and we were beat on pretty heavy last year, and I foresee no problems this year.

We have the facilities and resources to make whatever we want and we have used welded frames and bolted frames and we prefer the bolted. One big reason, if a weld breaks at competition and there are no welding facilities, your robot may not operate the same. I've seen that happen to welded frames at competition and the robot was never the same again.

I think it is time to agree to disagree.

[lukevanoort]

I have never seen a kitbot frame fail. We have defended and been defended using a kitbot chassis without any noticeable problems. It is pretty light, it does what we need, it is strong enough, and it is easy to work with.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

well if u have one high torqued robot pressing against a KOP bot (which happened in 06 for me) it could break, i did it myself.. i drove the robot.

ive also see some KOP robots run str8 into walls and fall apart

what im trying to figure out with this thread is why people use KOP bots.. i personally dot understand it

It seems like these observations are skewed by a confirmation bias. Because one thinks that the Kitbot is inherently weak, their attention will automatically be driven towards Kitbot failures and will often overlook contrary evidence (non-Kitbot robots breaking).

I've seen just as many non-Kitbot chassis robots bend/break as Kitbot ones.

No matter what choice you go with (KOP or custom), if you don't build it right it will break.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

well if u have one high torqued robot pressing against a KOP bot (which happened in 06 for me) it could break, i did it myself.. i drove the robot.

ive also see some KOP robots run str8 into walls and fall apart

what im trying to figure out with this thread is why people use KOP bots.. i personally dot understand it

fortunately for you, people dont need to justify their robot design to yourself.

in all seriousness though, the KOP frame is surprisingly strong for what you get. Its there on day 1 ready to build (unless your in brazil, sorry guys) and it gets you moving right off the bat.

some teams don't have access to a welder to weld box beam together. bolting a frame together can also turn into a mess if your not doing it right/ don't know exactly how to do it.

we do not use the KOP frame on our robots because we have the capability to make something better suited to OUR needs, it doesn't mean other teams do as well.

[dragoonex]

Our team found the KOP frame to be quite strong. We built our 2006 and 2008 bot out of it. Our 2007 bot was built out of 10-10, and 20-10. Regardless, both bots have held up well. We've jumped roadside curbs, ramps, pulled wheelies, and hit lockers and walls at full speed with our 2006 bot and besides losing a few screws which weren't loctited, it hasn't sustained any damage.

The KOP frame is useful for us, because it's light, easy to assemble, and it is easy for new team members to build. Of course, it's strength depends on how it's built, but we haven't had any problems.

[Jon Stratis]

We've been using our robot from last year for test driving this year, and while many things have gone wrong with it (we've lost some bolts and other pieces, the main circuit panel popped off and pulled out a few wires, etc), the frame is still as good as it was when we went to our competition last year. And trust me - our drivers have driven it straight into cement walls and pillars... one even almost too a door off it's hinges with it!

The frame is definitely strong enough - I would attribute any breakage to "user error" - bad nuts and bolts, improper mounting of other pieces to it, etc.