Shooters vs Arms

[ggoldman]

I wanted to start a discussion on the effectiveness of shooters vs arm lifters.

Here are some pros and cons I see of both:

Shooters

Pros:
Quick release
Can hurdle "on the run"

Cons:
Cannot Place on Overpass at end
Can be "Blocked" easily
Cannot (on their own) knock down balls off overpass

Arm lifters

Pros:
Can knock balls off overpass
Can place on overpass at end of game
Cannot be "Blocked" while hurdling

Cons:
Slightly slower than shooters
Possible High Center of Gravity


In my analysis, an arm lifter can outscore a shooter bot fairly easily:

If an arm bot knocks a ball off the overpass during autonomous and places a ball on the overpass at the end:

20 pt difference

That means that a shooter bot would have to hurdle 2 extra times (and pass finish line) to make up the point difference.

So the question to ask is: Can a shooter get two (or more) extra laps while hurdling when compared to an arm bot?

Please comment and continue this discussion.

[Brandon Holley]

It is very VERY hard to have this kind of argument without getting into one's opinions. In my opinion...a shooter bot can get rid of the ball MUCH faster than an arm bot can and for the most part can do that without lining up or stopping.

It really is a matter of opinion and design. BOTH in some cases will be very effective and BOTH in some cases will be almost completely useless.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

It is very VERY hard to have this kind of argument without getting into one's opinions. In my opinion...a shooter bot can get rid of the ball MUCH faster than an arm bot can and for the most part can do that without lining up or stopping.

But then there's acquiring time... It'll probably balance out in the end.

[s_forbes]

Who says a shooter robot can't take a ball down and put it back?

Conversely, who says that an arm robot has to slow down to hurdle?

[ggoldman]

Good point Forbes!

What do you think the best mix will be for an alliance?

Two arms and 1 shooter?

1 Shooter, 1 arm, and 1 racer (just goes very quick around the track)

[Doug Leppard]

Our team has an arm. I was very impressed by the shooter, being able to do this on the run is very impressive.

I think our advantages in knocking down and placing on top will be challenged by shooters fast shooting.

The down side of a shooter can be easily overcome by good partners.

So it will be seen in actual competition how this plays out, but I am not discounting a good shooter.

Interesting you have two phases of competition, 1st being the preliminaries matches, where you might not have good partners. Second phase is the finals where you can create a balance.

I know that since we can do hybrid well and place and knock down we would like to have a good partner shooter to balance us out. So I think each will need each other in the finals.

[akash155]

concerning the blocking of the shooter, I understand this might be skewing the rule book but i was wondering if you guys might possibly consider blocking a ball in the air from the shooter as a violation of the protection while hurdling rule <G42> and even if it isn't the force that it takes to project that ball over the overpass is so great that a team would not sacrifice its arm unless it was specifically made for blocking.

[flyingcrayons]

we had a HUGE discussion about this the other day. i think that the shooter can also knock the ball of the overpass. it wouldn't be too hard

[Madison]

Originally Posted by akash155

concerning the blocking of the shooter, I understand this might be skewing the rule book but i was wondering if you guys might possibly consider blocking a ball in the air from the shooter as a violation of the protection while hurdling rule <G42> and even if it isn't the force that it takes to project that ball over the overpass is so great that a team would not sacrifice its arm unless it was specifically made for blocking.

Once the trackball is no longer in possession of the robot -- that is, once it's been flung at the overpass -- it's fair game. Knock it out of the sky.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by akash155

concerning the blocking of the shooter, I understand this might be skewing the rule book but i was wondering if you guys might possibly consider blocking a ball in the air from the shooter as a violation of the protection while hurdling rule <G42> and even if it isn't the force that it takes to project that ball over the overpass is so great that a team would not sacrifice its arm unless it was specifically made for blocking.

IF and ONLY IF the ball were clearly away from the robot (not contacting it in any way, shape, or form) would I consider it fair game for blocking. Once the ball has left the robot, the protection of <G42> no longer applies. You do need to be careful as to where you block it, as once it has crossed, it counts for 8 points for them once it hits your robot.

Standard disclaimer: I am not one of the game designers; therefore, I am not necessarily the most accurate source of game info. Q&A is.

[GaryVoshol]

<G42> protects a HURDLING robot (and the trackball it is holding) from "overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt." (emphasis mine) If an opponent can block a shooter without contact, and without impeding, it should be fine. This would be a question to ask in the meeting with the Head Ref on Friday morning of competition, to see how <G42> would be called. It most likely will be covered in referee training.

[Nevets Amstier]

i really think we'll have to wait until the pre-season compitions start and we see how the game is really played.

[TubaMorg]

It would be interesting to see what happens to a robot that is hit with a ball fired by a launcher into its extended blocking mechanism.

[Brandon Holley]

Like I said earlier this thread is 100% matter of opinion, while I can see shooters being very quick, i can also see the versatility of an arm. Its going to come down to ball capturability and overall effective design, just like it does every year.

[EricH]

What would really be cool is: 2 arm robots and a launcher. The arm robots capture the trackballs and load the launcher. Launcher fires, arm robot who just loaded it scurries under the overpass and grabs the ball, taking it around again. Meanwhile, the other arm robot comes in to reload the launcher. At the end of the game, the arm robots put the trackballs up, and the launcher crosses the finish line.