Defense, It's still here.

[Sunshine]

There will be defense but it will be centered around the ball more than the opposing robot. It would be more like soccer, where you should be going after the ball to be legal.

I hope that those working on catapulting are NOT working at aiming those balls at other robots as they hurdle. I hope that FIRST puts a rule in indicating that blatant aiming at robots will be a DQ.

A question for those of you that discuss "strategic defense". Is there any other kind?

[octothorpe]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

There remain a number of rules which, in my opinion, are too reliant on the subjective judgement of a referee.

I can't be impeding a robot intentionally unless I know that it's trying to get by me, and I can't know that until it makes an attempt at such or "bumps to pass". A robot 20' behind me may have every intention of passing me as it catches up to me and I might be weaving back and forth in an unrelated action and there exists every opportunity for a referee to interpret that as impedence. That is unsettling.

I have to say that <G40> does seem written to prevent all but either the most original or best-disguised forms of defense. Perhaps this will simply force defensive robots to get more creative; I certainly hope it doesn't eliminate their role. Non-destructive defense is a perfectly legitimate part of the FRC challenge, and as several people have pointed out, just because scoring tends to be more glamorous shouldn't mean that it's the only viable strategy. Besides, one of the characteristics of a good offensive robot should be the versatility necessary to evade and overcome defensive attempts.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

A question for those of you that discuss "strategic defense". Is there any other kind?

The other kind is "tactical defense".

[ScottM]

It might be better to refer to defense as "active" and "passive".

Active defense would involve your robot agressively trying to stop your opponent's offensive moves through some sort of robot to robot interaction that you initiate. The GDC has effectively eliminated most avenues of this type of defense in the rules. (Defense on the trackballs being one exception)

Passive defense would involve trying to stop your opponents by being in their way, without actively initiating robot to robot contact. The rules allow you to be standing still anywhere on the field, as long as you aren't moving and there is a clear lane around you.

One strategy of using a passive defense would be to position your robot in front of your alliance's trackball on the opposing alliance's overpass, which could hinder attempts by your opponents to dislodge it. This is perfectly legal within the current rules, as long as you are not moving to impede the opposing robots.

Personally, due to the nature of this year's game, I would not discount the possibility of a successful passive defensive strategy.

[ALIBI]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

There will be defense but it will be centered around the ball more than the opposing robot. It would be more like soccer, where you should be going after the ball to be legal.

I hope that those working on catapulting are NOT working at aiming those balls at other robots as they hurdle. I hope that FIRST puts a rule in indicating that blatant aiming at robots will be a DQ.

A question for those of you that discuss "strategic defense". Is there any other kind?

The manual indicates that you should design your robot to withstand hits from Trackballs! Intentionally trying to damage or tip an opposing alliances robot is a no no. If a hurdler obviously moves their robot/hurdling mechanism back and forth to aim at another robot it would probably be a rules violation. A new rule is probably not needed, however, an interpretation of the applicable rules will either be asked about in the Q and A or be a topic of discussion during the drivers meeting with the Head Ref. A hurdler should not have to look down the field to see what may be in the way of the Trackball once he hurdles it. My advice, if you see a a Trackball coming, get out of the way! Even if it is a rules violation it would not be worthwhile to be tipped over or worse damaged just to have the opposing alliance get a penalty.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

Trust me, If you think that there will be no defense this year, you are mistaken.
THis game is designed so that defense is going to be played at the same time as offense. Robots the are just boxes on wheels are going to be effective and i figure that they will be able to make or break a match in qualifying. There are teams that will make a strategy to play defense and be VERY effective.

[Zyik]

Originally Posted by 65_Xero_Huskie

Trust me, If you think that there will be no defense this year, you are mistaken.
THis game is designed so that defense is going to be played at the same time as offense. Robots the are just boxes on wheels are going to be effective and i figure that they will be able to make or break a match in qualifying. There are teams that will make a strategy to play defense and be VERY effective.

Thankfully FIRST made it so that this year a box on wheels can still score. This should encourage rookie teams who don't have the know-how/experience/resources to build a more complex robot.

If you have a robot that takes a while to pick up a trackball an opposing robot, say... a box on wheels... could "bump to pass" just enough to make them have to realign themselves again, while the box on wheels keeps going around the track, scoring points. Hopefully the robot doesn't take to long to position them selves and grab the trackball or the box on wheels could keep this up the whole match, while scoring points for their alliance.

[Sunshine]

Defense now becomes much more challenging after Update 2

[IbleedPink233]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Defense now becomes much more challenging after Update 2

I don't see how it is harder, unless you planned on aggressively attacking your opponents' Trackball while they were Hurdling.

Our team has discussed defense and I think that the rules have been laid out to encourage teamwork (sharing balls with your allies) and discourage heavy defense (an improvement over last year, where slamming a robot into the Rack, often entangling it, was just fine - I never saw it called).
Defnitely, the defense this year will be way more creative this year than last year, where the push-the-robot-halfway-across-the-field-and-never-stop strategy was the one that was the only truely effective one (at least, the only widely used effective one).
In my brief experience as a base driver during off-seasons, it is way more fun to play effective defense than it is to score because it is a mental challenge between you and your opponent.
We will have to see how the game turns out - as it could be in any number of ways, but I definitely foresee a copious amount of defense (you have to have at least one ally without a Trackball do something) even if it is not really intense. A lot also rests in the hands of the Referees, of course.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by dlavery

If you try this approach, you may need a few extra team members to help you count all your penalty points. There are a few rules that very effectively combine to prevent you from doing this.

-dave

Just curious, as this confused me, what rules does it break? I can't seem to find any that are violated, but you are Dave Lavery after all; I kind of trust you .

[hipsterjr]

I think it would be wise to watch some NASCAR races. There is more than just "turning left" going on there. If alliance partners work closely together, they can effectively create a three (or just two) wide moving wall. While opponents can keep moving, they are seriously slowed down/aggravated, and getting TB's becomes a nightmare. This strategy, employed with "the dance" (mentioned by others as a offense strategy) would throw a beautiful defense/offense combo into the mix

In summary, this year, good defense will come from team work. Not just one or two ambling bash and run bots.

[thefro526]

I think it would be wise to watch some NASCAR races. There is more than just "turning left" going on there. If alliance partners work closely together, they can effectively create a three (or just two) wide moving wall. While opponents can keep moving, they are seriously slowed down/aggravated, and getting TB's becomes a nightmare. This strategy, employed with "the dance" (mentioned by others as a offense strategy) would throw a beautiful defense/offense combo into the mix

In summary, this year, good defense will come from team work. Not just one or two ambling bash and run bots.

I think this would be a very interesting strategy. It would be especially useful for an alliance of non-hurdlers to use against hurdlers. Over time many drivers would become frustrated and more inclined to mess up.

[Spiders]

heres a semi-stupid question are you allowed to pick up the opposing teams ball and launch it backwards?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Spiders

heres a semi-stupid question are you allowed to pick up the opposing teams ball and launch it backwards?

That's possession, so no.

You may, however, simply knock it backwards.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

My guess is that you'll not be able to build it strong enough to withstand a strong blow from the ball (remember, some teams will shoot the trackball and it has a decent amount of mass) and if you do build it strong enough then you will be very top heavy and will likely end up on your side, blocking traffic and incurring penalties for the remainder of the match.

Remember that if you end up on your side, you can disable your robot and then not incur any penalties... hmm... is anyone planning that?

(note: I know it's not GP and we're certainly not planning it... don't do it... bad...)