**FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I get where they're trying to go with the ethnicity and free/reduced lunch aspect (ie you're reaching out to those who might not be already exposed to such programs), but they shouldn't force the issue, or use it against the teams from less diverse areas (financially and racially).

I'm pretty sure that part is only for FIRST's statistics (like you said, finding out exactly who they're reaching out to.) Considering it asks the free/reduced lunch information about the entire school and not just the team, I doubt that's used for anything but putting information together on what communities FIRST is reaching.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Libby K

I'm pretty sure that part is only for FIRST's statistics (like you said, finding out exactly who they're reaching out to.) Considering it asks the free/reduced lunch information about the entire school and not just the team, I doubt that's used for anything but putting information together on what communities FIRST is reaching.

If the information was just provided to, and retained by, FIRST then it would not be a problem. But the demographic and statistical information is provided to all the judges in addition to FIRST. Some (albeit certainly not all) of the judges have indicated that they have considered that information when making award decisions in the past. And that is the concern that many of us are having with providing this information.

[MoeMom]

I see the problem. The info is useful to funders and planners when its aggregated, but may not tell the whole story to judges looking at one team or another. Our students come from 16 different schools and homeschools, so there really isn't an answer to school questions for us. If your budget incs. hosting regional events, public demos, travel for all students and adult mentors, it doesn't mean its easy to build a rockin' robot...of course not. It's hard work, alot of fundraising, and alot of green paint... then you still sweat out every match and admire the teams that out-score and out-play you. (We really do, BTW.)

On another note, judging is hard. I appreciate that they show up to do it anyway. Maybe there's better, more meaningful info to help them--

[Anne Shade]

More so than ever, the FIRST organization has been stressing the fact that we are out to change the culture, that this is not just about building robots. The problem is that the judges brought in to judge us on our progress in that goal of changing the culture are from the general public and therefore have very little understanding of what FIRST is all about (with a few exceptions, but they are few and very far between). The judges should not be using some of the statistics found in the yearbook page to make their decisions but many of them do because it is available to them. Many judging decisions at competitions are made based on the wrong criteria and it isn't really the judges' faults. How can we expect someone to come in for a day and a half and understand what FIRST really is as well as judge all the teams at their events based on those principles? How can these judges who don't understand even the most basic of principles of what FIRST is judge one team versus another? They do the best they can with what they know. Some look at the numbers they see on the yearbook page. Some choose the team with the coolest giveaway. Some pick based on a catchy name or logo.

What should be changed is how these judges are trained. If they have the proper resources available to them to make their difficult decisions based on the proper information, we'd all be better off.

[Chris Fultz]

Lots of good dicussion here.

I would be concerned about judges using the demographic data in their criteria, because for the most part, the students cannot influence that statistic - most of them go to school where they live and their neighborhood is their neighborhood. The students can influence what they do with the resources they have access to (plenty or minimal).

I will add that it is incredibly difficult to be a judge, even with FIRST experience. There are many teams to talk to, lots of information to process, and lots of debate. The info you provide thru TIMS can help the judges get to know you a little in advance, and then they can focus on more detailed questions when they come to your pit. If things were perfect, they would have an hour with each team - but they don't - they haev 5 minutes at the most.

Also regarding judges, the judge advisor is charged with the task of making sure judges make the right decisions and use the right criteria. A good judge advisor keeps the judging team working effectively.

And fianlly, regarding "what awards you are most competitive for" - a judge once told me "If a team does not know what awards they are competitive for, how can they expect me to figure it out?" I think the point was, you should be aware of the awards and criteria and be able to speak to them, and know what ones might apply to your team. Know your strengths and talk about them.

[Kims Robot]

Has anyone stopped to think... "Its just plastic"?

Maybe its just me, and trust me, I am so proud of my team for the awards that they have won, but I would be proud of them no matter what. Our students are learning and growing, and we are inspiring them, and to me thats far more important than if some CEO denied us a piece of plastic because we didnt have enough reduced lunches or our budget was larger than another teams.

And maybe its just me, but LIFE ISNT FAIR. There is bias and political moves everywhere. I work in an engineering company, if you piss off the wrong person, you wont climb the ladder. Its a fact of life, and as much as I want to shield my kids from it, its true. But in the end, I would hope that being happy doing what we do, doing your job in the end is more important than a title on your office door or money falling out of your pockets. FIRST is much the same for me. I care less what a judge thinks about our team than what we think of ourselves.

Take a step back and realize that its really not that big of a deal. FIRST is just trying to give some background info to the judges. If a judge walked up to your pit and asked a student what award they thought their team most wanted to win, would you duct tape their mouth shut?? If a judge was local and knew a team was from a city school and pulled their robot together on a shoestring budget, but saw in the paper that Harris spends 8 bajillion dollars on their team, would you want them to consider both teams on exactly the same level? I certainly don't. Another example is that I try to get each of my students to rise to their own capabilities. If I know they are capable of more, I push them, even if they are already doing 3 times what the next student is. I'm going to challenge them on their own levels. And I want our teams to be the same. I dont want the judges to compare our team on an equal level to a high school non sponsored team that barely scraped together $6k. I want the judges to expect that team's best out of them, just like I want the judges to expect our best out of us. Its all different levels and Im not at all offended or ashamed to give any answers asked.

I do admit when I first looked at those questions I did wonder why it mattered, but then I realized, it doesn't matter to us. If everyone is honest, I trust that the judges will make the best decisions possible. Saying that these CEO's, VP's and Marketing Directors cant be trusted to make unbiased decisions just isnt fair. We dont know them, we have no idea what they are going to base their decisions on, and we can hope that they are going to go by the criteria of the award and make the best decisions they possibly can.

Again... maybe its just me...

[Amanda Morrison]

Kim,

Having been at both ends of the team spectrum myself, I've seen bias go both ways. FIRST works very hard to provide versatile, informative materials to train a variety of volunteers. Unfortunately, FIRST cannot control one of the major factors of judging - the personality and biases of judges themselves. I, as well as many of the people who have responded in the thread outside of the MF, do realize this. What they are claiming, however, is that the information that is included in the demographics normally collected by FIRST should not go to the judges to further fuel this bias. I've seen a wide variety of judges and played that part, too; I know what a difficult decision it can be to decide between two teams. If there is an appropriate time to discuss ethnicity in the judges' room, I'd love to hear about it.

But I guess what I really feel that you've got all wrong is the notion that 'it's just a trophy'. If that is the philosophy that you truly believe, and if that selfless sentiment was shared by every team, why not get rid of the awards process (aside from the competition) altogether? Why bother having a Chairman's Award?

The truth is that the awards, much like the competition itself and especially the Chairman's, give each team something to strive towards. It is a physical embodiment of what they have worked hard to achieve. THIS is why we are competitive, this is what the kids can see that they've gotten from this program. It may take them years to realize the potential and self-confidence that they've gained, but having a trophy in front of them shows the importance of those characteristics. Simply having the ambiguous 'mission of FIRST' as your proponent for participation will only go so far. Nobody's there to half-inspire students. Nobody's there to half-engineer a robot.

To have a trophy and title to strive for is natural in FIRST - try to tell the kids who are so proud of their teams, who have their accomplishments in signatures here on ChiefDelphi and proudly wear their medals at competition, to throw them away.

Now if we're all competitive, and FIRST offers the opportunity for us to not only further their mission but also AWARDS us for doing the best job of it, why should we provide information that could potentially hurt us from receiving one of those awards? If it is truly just a trophy, ask your team to give theirs away and no longer celebrate what they've won. Even further, tell them never to strive to receive one again.

There's a reason why some of the most recognized, influential, and oft-emulated teams in FIRST (and by FIRST) have a full trophy rack in their school.

For everyone out there - don't be ashamed of your trophies. You worked hard for them. They are YOURS. They are your hard work, your lessons learned, your enthusiasm and spirit. They are coveted by many and received by few. Strive to earn them. Work hard to get them honestly. Put your accomplishments in the signatures of this forum and show everyone what you're made of. But even more, don't let the disappointment of not having one get to you, work that much harder to get it.

And if a judge comes into your pit and asks you what award you feel you should get, show them what sets you apart - but tell them the awards are for them to decide.

[Carol]

I think this thread is moving away from the original question and into the
area of judge bashing. Judges are volunteers, using their vacation time and
paying their own way to events. They aren't perfect, but they are trying
to do the best job they can. And it is a difficult job. Statements such as
"Many judging decisions at competitions are made based on the wrong
criteria" aren't based on fact and certainly don't show the spirit of
GP.

If you feel that your team was unfairly denied an award, remember that you probably don't know enough about all the teams to make that judgment, congratulate the winners, move on to the next challenge, and try harder next time. But don't badmouth the judges.

[RoboMom]

I agree, lots of good discussion here.

I believe that many of the teams (FIRST can give you the actual figures) don't end up submitting information on this page, for one reason or another.

One way to treat the judging process is like a job interview. A lot of information needs to be exchanged in a short amount of time. If done correctly, a resume (judging sheet, give away in the pits) can help. You choose what to put on it. Having the team be able to speak up and answer the judges questions is an enormous help. One of the best things about FIRST is all the stories, but the stories need to be told in a common language. Time is short, so the team needs to prioritize the stories.

Over the years, I've heard lots of stories about the judging process. I had one team tell me that as far as they could figure, another team was given an award for something they also did. But the judges didn't know that (because it wasn't explained in the business plan they had). Talking to the judges is an enormous life skill that needs to be practiced and FIRST gives the students the opportunity to do this.

Judging is hard work. Although pretty basic, some new teams might find this helpful. http://www.firstnemo.org/PDF/NEMO-ju...e_regional.pdf

[Kims Robot]

Warning - don't read if you are tired

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Kim,
But I guess what I really feel that you've got all wrong is the notion that 'it's just a trophy'. If that is the philosophy that you truly believe, and if that selfless sentiment was shared by every team, why not get rid of the awards process (aside from the competition) altogether? Why bother having a Chairman's Award?

Personally, since this was directed at me, I believe that awards are a nice way to attempt to recognize good work. Does one team being recognized mean that there aren't a dozen more that didn't deserve a commendation? Not in my mind. I think thats why a lot of teams give out team awards, and thats certainly why the team awards are in the same trophy case for us as the official FIRST awards.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

The truth is that the awards, much like the competition itself and especially the Chairman's, give each team something to strive towards. It is a physical embodiment of what they have worked hard to achieve. THIS is why we are competitive, this is what the kids can see that they've gotten from this program. It may take them years to realize the potential and self-confidence that they've gained, but having a trophy in front of them shows the importance of those characteristics. Simply having the ambiguous 'mission of FIRST' as your proponent for participation will only go so far. Nobody's there to half-inspire students. Nobody's there to half-engineer a robot.

This is where I believe we differ in opinion. I listen to all my kids talk when they speak about FIRST and tell their stories at our millions of demos... they don't talk about the awards they won, even though we bring the trophies. They talk about the impact the program has had on them, how they have changed and grown. Don't get me wrong, it feels great to win an award, but I see too many teams get too competitive and get upset with other teams that win awards (I can remember being guilty of this in high school) when they think they should have, that its just not worth getting worked up over.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

To have a trophy and title to strive for is natural in FIRST - try to tell the kids who are so proud of their teams, who have their accomplishments in signatures here on ChiefDelphi and proudly wear their medals at competition, to throw them away.

I NEVER said not to be proud of their trophies, my point was actually more to the contrary... don't get upset if you didn't win them, and just because you didn't win them doesn't mean you aren't doing the right thing. And at the same time, I PERSONALLY don't want to encourage people to flaunt it and rub it in the faces of other teams that didn't win. There is a very fine line to walk there, Celebration is one thing, flaunting is another. Many FIRST teams don't rub it in the faces of others, but I do see many teams walk away grumbling that they should have won it, or this team only won it because they spent a thousand dollars making a really cool video, or because their sponsor does that. And I would like to see that bitterness go away. Its only a trophy. Celebrate things in your own way. My kids were sad in our rookie year when they realized there was a Woodie Flowers award, and that they hadn't known to submit for it, so they organized for our next regional to do an entire presentation of fancy trophies for all of our mentors. And to me, that trophy means so much more than them even trying to submit for the WFA that year because they initiated it. It wasn't a piece of plastic that some other group of people decided to give me, it was something that came from their hearts and that they did above and beyond the rest.

So all I am is saying is Celebrate your accomplishments in whatever way works. If its really what some judge from some company that doesnt know you matters, well then I guess trophies are the way to celebrate that, and what your team should strive for. If inspiring kids and getting them interested in science and technology is your goal, then look at what you think of yourselves and how many kids are going to college as your reward. To some teams, perhaps this "feel good" is not enough. Perhaps they need the official FIRST medals to really feel good about themselves, and thats ok, but I think thats more along the lines of Sports and NOT what Dean founded FIRST for. But that is just my opinion. I respect that to some teams that trophy may mean the world. And that maybe it is their only proof of what they have accomplished, but for my team its not. I can guarantee you they would be doing what they are doing even if FIRST didn't give out awards, and to me, thats a good feeling.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Now if we're all competitive, and FIRST offers the opportunity for us to not only further their mission but also AWARDS us for doing the best job of it, why should we provide information that could potentially hurt us from receiving one of those awards? If it is truly just a trophy, ask your team to give theirs away and no longer celebrate what they've won. Even further, tell them never to strive to receive one again.

Thats the thing, though, maybe all of us aren't competitive... maybe some of us see the competition as a fun way to celebrate all of our accomplishments. Now I don't mean we wont try our hardest at competition, or strive to meet the objectives of the awards, but its not the winning of them that matters to every team. Some, yes, and thats ok. But for me, I'm not going to get bent out of shape because a judge seemingly gave an award to another team because they had a greater percentage of reduced lunch.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

There's a reason why some of the most recognized, influential, and oft-emulated teams in FIRST (and by FIRST) have a full trophy rack in their school.

The reason is because they were able to best convey to the judges why they should get the award. Presentation & Selling your team and your accomplishments is probably 60% of getting the awards. If you look at our trophy case, we aren't short on them, but I'll tell you, our most successful year was our first year, and we barely even read the awards section of the manual that year. We knew what FIRST was and we believed in it, we did what we did because it was fun and we loved the ideals and what we were doing. That excitement is what won us the awards, not because we were trying for it, or even cared what some judge thought of us. To be honest, our team often gets more excited when some of the teams that we know win awards.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

For everyone out there - don't be ashamed of your trophies. You worked hard for them. They are YOURS. They are your hard work, your lessons learned, your enthusiasm and spirit. They are coveted by many and received by few. Strive to earn them. Work hard to get them honestly. Put your accomplishments in the signatures of this forum and show everyone what you're made of. But even more, don't let the disappointment of not having one get to you, work that much harder to get it.

And if a judge comes into your pit and asks you what award you feel you should get, show them what sets you apart - but tell them the awards are for them to decide.

Please tell me exactly where in my post you think I told people to be ashamed of their trophies, because I never intended that and I apologize to anyone who interpreted it that way. The biggest thing I'm trying to say is exactly what you said here... don't let the disappointment get to you, and I'm not saying don't try harder, but don't base all of your pride in yourselves on winning or not winning a trophy. As Carol says, the judges are volunteers like the rest of the mentors. They are capable of making mistakes, but we have to trust them like we trust our mentors, and I personally would encourage teams to celebrate their accomplishments no matter how many trophies you do or don't come home with.

Thats the end to my tangent from the original discussion

[Amanda Morrison]

I don't see a reason to continue this particular off-topic subject anywhere but PM's, since it appears to be a subject that only the two of us have been discussing and it's obvious that we disagree quite a bit.

In terms of the original topic of inappropriate information for the judges, I'm all ears as to what other teams are planning to do - should we just skip the information we feel might influence a judges' decision about our team? Should we just politely put in a note that we'd like to speak to the judges at the event about this particular information, if they're that interested?

I've got tentative answers written out, but haven't posted them to FIRSTawards quite yet... still hoping we'll hear either a clarification or some more information from FIRST before Thursday's deadline.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

I don't see a reason to continue this particular off-topic subject anywhere but PM's, since it appears to be a subject that only the two of us have been discussing and it's obvious that we disagree quite a bit.

In terms of the original topic of inappropriate information for the judges, I'm all ears as to what other teams are planning to do - should we just skip the information we feel might influence a judges' decision about our team? Should we just politely put in a note that we'd like to speak to the judges at the event about this particular information, if they're that interested?

I've got tentative answers written out, but haven't posted them to FIRSTawards quite yet... still hoping we'll hear either a clarification or some more information from FIRST before Thursday's deadline.

Clarifying before I respond ... I think you mean tuesday's deadline and TIMS (not FIRSTawards) right?

In any event .... I answered them all in as few truthful words as possible - more like bullet point lists. In the areas I felt uncomfortable about, I spoke in mre general terms. 255 characters really isn't an "essay" at all anyway ...

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Considering it asks the free/reduced lunch information about the entire school and not just the team, I doubt that's used for anything but putting information together on what communities FIRST is reaching.

Isn't this already available though?