**FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

The demographics of the school often have little to do with the demographics of the team. A poorer school with a rich sponsor will have better resources than a team with fewer sponsor resources, even if the second school is in the richest community in the state.

This is very true with our team. Wilson Magnet is like two different schools. With the IB program and AP and Honors course. One of the selling points they have to parents who want to enroll their kids is how they segregate the IB kids from the others. Even in homerooms. A good portion of the IB program is mostly white kids and most of the school is black.
The team is mostly made up of IB kids. One of our new students actually was going to pass up joining the team because she thought the team was solely for IB students when in reality it's for all students. Fortunately one of our mentors talked her into to joining and she has been very proud to be an X-Cat.
It's one of the challenges we face having to improve the visibility of the team in school (very hard to do when your facility is on the other side of town and there are just so many display spaces available to tell your story) and have them realize that the X-Cats are good for all of Wilson Magnet.

[RoboMom]

I agree, lots of good discussion here.

I believe that many of the teams (FIRST can give you the actual figures) don't end up submitting information on this page, for one reason or another.

One way to treat the judging process is like a job interview. A lot of information needs to be exchanged in a short amount of time. If done correctly, a resume (judging sheet, give away in the pits) can help. You choose what to put on it. Having the team be able to speak up and answer the judges questions is an enormous help. One of the best things about FIRST is all the stories, but the stories need to be told in a common language. Time is short, so the team needs to prioritize the stories.

Over the years, I've heard lots of stories about the judging process. I had one team tell me that as far as they could figure, another team was given an award for something they also did. But the judges didn't know that (because it wasn't explained in the business plan they had). Talking to the judges is an enormous life skill that needs to be practiced and FIRST gives the students the opportunity to do this.

Judging is hard work. Although pretty basic, some new teams might find this helpful. http://www.firstnemo.org/PDF/NEMO-ju...e_regional.pdf

[dsmoker]

For those of you who were wondering whether your team will be considered for an award you don't mention in the summary for the judge's, the answer is an emphatic yes, based on team 558's personal experience. Last year we won the Daimler Chrysler Team Spirit Award at the CT Regional, one that was not mentioned in our summary of awards we thought we were strong competitors for.

[Kims Robot]

Warning - don't read if you are tired

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Kim,
But I guess what I really feel that you've got all wrong is the notion that 'it's just a trophy'. If that is the philosophy that you truly believe, and if that selfless sentiment was shared by every team, why not get rid of the awards process (aside from the competition) altogether? Why bother having a Chairman's Award?

Personally, since this was directed at me, I believe that awards are a nice way to attempt to recognize good work. Does one team being recognized mean that there aren't a dozen more that didn't deserve a commendation? Not in my mind. I think thats why a lot of teams give out team awards, and thats certainly why the team awards are in the same trophy case for us as the official FIRST awards.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

The truth is that the awards, much like the competition itself and especially the Chairman's, give each team something to strive towards. It is a physical embodiment of what they have worked hard to achieve. THIS is why we are competitive, this is what the kids can see that they've gotten from this program. It may take them years to realize the potential and self-confidence that they've gained, but having a trophy in front of them shows the importance of those characteristics. Simply having the ambiguous 'mission of FIRST' as your proponent for participation will only go so far. Nobody's there to half-inspire students. Nobody's there to half-engineer a robot.

This is where I believe we differ in opinion. I listen to all my kids talk when they speak about FIRST and tell their stories at our millions of demos... they don't talk about the awards they won, even though we bring the trophies. They talk about the impact the program has had on them, how they have changed and grown. Don't get me wrong, it feels great to win an award, but I see too many teams get too competitive and get upset with other teams that win awards (I can remember being guilty of this in high school) when they think they should have, that its just not worth getting worked up over.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

To have a trophy and title to strive for is natural in FIRST - try to tell the kids who are so proud of their teams, who have their accomplishments in signatures here on ChiefDelphi and proudly wear their medals at competition, to throw them away.

I NEVER said not to be proud of their trophies, my point was actually more to the contrary... don't get upset if you didn't win them, and just because you didn't win them doesn't mean you aren't doing the right thing. And at the same time, I PERSONALLY don't want to encourage people to flaunt it and rub it in the faces of other teams that didn't win. There is a very fine line to walk there, Celebration is one thing, flaunting is another. Many FIRST teams don't rub it in the faces of others, but I do see many teams walk away grumbling that they should have won it, or this team only won it because they spent a thousand dollars making a really cool video, or because their sponsor does that. And I would like to see that bitterness go away. Its only a trophy. Celebrate things in your own way. My kids were sad in our rookie year when they realized there was a Woodie Flowers award, and that they hadn't known to submit for it, so they organized for our next regional to do an entire presentation of fancy trophies for all of our mentors. And to me, that trophy means so much more than them even trying to submit for the WFA that year because they initiated it. It wasn't a piece of plastic that some other group of people decided to give me, it was something that came from their hearts and that they did above and beyond the rest.

So all I am is saying is Celebrate your accomplishments in whatever way works. If its really what some judge from some company that doesnt know you matters, well then I guess trophies are the way to celebrate that, and what your team should strive for. If inspiring kids and getting them interested in science and technology is your goal, then look at what you think of yourselves and how many kids are going to college as your reward. To some teams, perhaps this "feel good" is not enough. Perhaps they need the official FIRST medals to really feel good about themselves, and thats ok, but I think thats more along the lines of Sports and NOT what Dean founded FIRST for. But that is just my opinion. I respect that to some teams that trophy may mean the world. And that maybe it is their only proof of what they have accomplished, but for my team its not. I can guarantee you they would be doing what they are doing even if FIRST didn't give out awards, and to me, thats a good feeling.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Now if we're all competitive, and FIRST offers the opportunity for us to not only further their mission but also AWARDS us for doing the best job of it, why should we provide information that could potentially hurt us from receiving one of those awards? If it is truly just a trophy, ask your team to give theirs away and no longer celebrate what they've won. Even further, tell them never to strive to receive one again.

Thats the thing, though, maybe all of us aren't competitive... maybe some of us see the competition as a fun way to celebrate all of our accomplishments. Now I don't mean we wont try our hardest at competition, or strive to meet the objectives of the awards, but its not the winning of them that matters to every team. Some, yes, and thats ok. But for me, I'm not going to get bent out of shape because a judge seemingly gave an award to another team because they had a greater percentage of reduced lunch.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

There's a reason why some of the most recognized, influential, and oft-emulated teams in FIRST (and by FIRST) have a full trophy rack in their school.

The reason is because they were able to best convey to the judges why they should get the award. Presentation & Selling your team and your accomplishments is probably 60% of getting the awards. If you look at our trophy case, we aren't short on them, but I'll tell you, our most successful year was our first year, and we barely even read the awards section of the manual that year. We knew what FIRST was and we believed in it, we did what we did because it was fun and we loved the ideals and what we were doing. That excitement is what won us the awards, not because we were trying for it, or even cared what some judge thought of us. To be honest, our team often gets more excited when some of the teams that we know win awards.

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

For everyone out there - don't be ashamed of your trophies. You worked hard for them. They are YOURS. They are your hard work, your lessons learned, your enthusiasm and spirit. They are coveted by many and received by few. Strive to earn them. Work hard to get them honestly. Put your accomplishments in the signatures of this forum and show everyone what you're made of. But even more, don't let the disappointment of not having one get to you, work that much harder to get it.

And if a judge comes into your pit and asks you what award you feel you should get, show them what sets you apart - but tell them the awards are for them to decide.

Please tell me exactly where in my post you think I told people to be ashamed of their trophies, because I never intended that and I apologize to anyone who interpreted it that way. The biggest thing I'm trying to say is exactly what you said here... don't let the disappointment get to you, and I'm not saying don't try harder, but don't base all of your pride in yourselves on winning or not winning a trophy. As Carol says, the judges are volunteers like the rest of the mentors. They are capable of making mistakes, but we have to trust them like we trust our mentors, and I personally would encourage teams to celebrate their accomplishments no matter how many trophies you do or don't come home with.

Thats the end to my tangent from the original discussion

[Amanda Morrison]

I don't see a reason to continue this particular off-topic subject anywhere but PM's, since it appears to be a subject that only the two of us have been discussing and it's obvious that we disagree quite a bit.

In terms of the original topic of inappropriate information for the judges, I'm all ears as to what other teams are planning to do - should we just skip the information we feel might influence a judges' decision about our team? Should we just politely put in a note that we'd like to speak to the judges at the event about this particular information, if they're that interested?

I've got tentative answers written out, but haven't posted them to FIRSTawards quite yet... still hoping we'll hear either a clarification or some more information from FIRST before Thursday's deadline.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

I don't see a reason to continue this particular off-topic subject anywhere but PM's, since it appears to be a subject that only the two of us have been discussing and it's obvious that we disagree quite a bit.

In terms of the original topic of inappropriate information for the judges, I'm all ears as to what other teams are planning to do - should we just skip the information we feel might influence a judges' decision about our team? Should we just politely put in a note that we'd like to speak to the judges at the event about this particular information, if they're that interested?

I've got tentative answers written out, but haven't posted them to FIRSTawards quite yet... still hoping we'll hear either a clarification or some more information from FIRST before Thursday's deadline.

Clarifying before I respond ... I think you mean tuesday's deadline and TIMS (not FIRSTawards) right?

In any event .... I answered them all in as few truthful words as possible - more like bullet point lists. In the areas I felt uncomfortable about, I spoke in mre general terms. 255 characters really isn't an "essay" at all anyway ...

[David Brinza]

I noticed a conflict in the Judge's Page submission deadline:

On the Team Summary Page in TIMS, the Judge's Information Section banner shows the submission deadline as Feb. 19, 2008 05:00 pm EST.

The e-mail blast (subject of this thread), indicates the deadline is Feb. 19, 2008 11:59 pm EST.

I spoke with FIRST this morning and they confirmed the 11:59 pm EST deadline is correct.

Hopefully, not too many teams get confused by this minor glitch...

[Mark McLeod]

This was blasted out on Monday (yesterday) afternoon...

----------

Greetings Teams:

Please remember all robots must ship by tomorrow, February 19th, 2008.

Also, information for the Team Yearbooks via the Judges Information section in TIMS is due tomorrow, by 11:59 p.m. EST. Details regarding the Judges Information can be found at:
http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...t.aspx?id=7958

Go Teams!

[Madison]

We've ended up filling out all of the team essays except for that which asks which award we're best suited for as well as the demographic information.

I don't want to win anything based upon our demographic information, but we also feel that it's important that FIRST understand our cost to participate is much higher due to the economic circumstances in the communities we serve. That is reflected in our demographic and budget information.

[Amanda Morrison]

As a follow up to all of this, I found out from our team's coach that teachers from our school district are asked to not distribute this information (free lunch statistics, ethnicity and gender specifications, etc.) unless it is absolutely necessary - I doubt this usage falls under this category. Her and I spoke at length and decided to leave the entire demographics page blank.

We did find out that simply putting an X in the Team Budget field will make it show as $0 but show that you have completed the appropriate field (the tab will be checked). We filled out all the rest of the information and it worked out fine.

As for the award essays, we spoke about these as well and decided that we'd simply put a nice message in some of the ones that we questioned: "Our team members would be more than happy to speak with the judges at competition regarding this question. Please feel free to contact any student on our team for more information." This allows us to better assist the judges directly without amplifying any bias they may already have prior to or during competition. We thought that was tactful and not inappropriate for the situation.

Apparently our team has been asked in the past to print out this information from TIMS and submit it to the Regional Director at a competition to "better assist the judges". I was surprised to hear this, since I didn't know that any FIRST field staff was to coach or 'assist' the competition judges... and why does the RD need to give this to the judges at their competition if it's not supplied directly from FIRST? I guess at least putting in polite references to please contact our team will get the judges to talk directly to our kids for correct information, and not rely on anyone else for it.

[dsmoker]

This whole thread has become a little troubling to me. While I certainly don't want our team to win any award based solely on our demographics or budget, I do think it's important for the judge's to know this information so they can see how we use our resources and how important the team is to our inner-city school. Let's face it, our little, low budget team will never be able to compete with the titans of FIRST for certain awards. But I know for a fact that one of the reasons we were given the Daimler Chrysler Team Spirit Award last year was to recognize the extraordinary dedication of our student team members, most of whom walk, ride bicycles or take public transportation to attend team meetings. And I don't see any problem with the FIRST judges recognizing that our students have to do more than many others just to participate.

That being said, our team filled out TIMS fully. And put what awards we felt we were qualified for this year. There's nothing wrong with a little honest salesmanship. And in the end, the judges will decide whether a given team is deserving of an award or not, no matter what their TIMS page says.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Oooooookay...

First, to the hue and cry about FIRST asking for demographic information and providing it to judges. As noted in passing in a few replies, many many many of these judges are from current or future regional and team sponsors. It's entirely possible that they're interested in the demographics of what they're funding. I realize that this info is theoretically available from FIRST... If any of you ever bothered filling it out. I'm quite confident that FIRST HQ was asking teams for this information many many years ago. I'm also pretty sure teams weren't bothering to fill it out because it didn't seem to matter. Now they're trying to entice you into it by saying it's for the judges, and you're still not filling it out.

Second, yes judges are going to look at this information and possibly use it to inform their decisions. A typical award panel is a composed of a handful of judges that have to make a ridiculously difficult decision between 30-60 teams in one maybe two days. And this isn't a science fair. You don't have nice neat objective categories to grade teams on to make your decision. My point being, the judges are desperate for any and all information they can get in the shortest time possible. If you don't provide that demographic info, they'll quite possibly rehash it with you and waste time doing so. If you don't give them those essay response as a launching point for their questions, they'll waste time asking you just what they heck you've been doing the last few months. And etc. Judging time is extremely limited even with the typical strategy of surveying the field, shortlisting the strongest candidates, and interviewing those at length. Basically, giving the judges more info is a good thing. And honestly, some of those data do make a difference. As pointed out above, a team with less support obviously has to work harder than a team with more support to achieve the same level of technical brilliance. I'm not saying that the judges sort teams by increasing budgets and then find the poorest team with a passable robot. But it is going to make some small difference in the awards process. You know, much like everything you tell the judges makes a difference in the awards process. If we're honestly railing against circumstances and situations affecting the judges, then we really should just start handing out the "Most lego league teams started" award followed by the "Most extensive use of CNC'd parts on a robot" award.

Which brings me to my main point. I have to say this is one of the most disillusioning and disheartening threads I've come across on CD in quite a while. Considering that some people in this thread used to make me feel inadequate and selfish for wanting to win a competition or two, I'm just a bit appalled. (Though a few are still managing to prod my inferiority complex.) In particular, the statement "Nothing is perfect, even the judges." really saddened me. Whether intended or not, I read this as "The judges have given awards to the wrong teams." Which is either ludicrous or reprehensible. Either you assume the judges are acting in good faith and selecting a team that most deserves the in their opinion, or you assume that they're not acting in good faith.... The former leaves no option for them to be wrong. Since when has anyone had a wrong opinion? The latter.... well I really don't want to contemplate the day when that's bandied about here on CD.

Finally, I wholeheartedly agree with Kim. Winning awards is fun, but I'd much rather leave my students with something a little more useful than a piece of plastic. A genuine interest in engineering, science, writing, marketing, journalism, and the confidence to pursue that interest..... That's a heck of a lot more useful than some $6000+ paperweight. Real professionals love their jobs because they love what they do. Anyone walking into an interview with a FIRST trophy and asking if they could get a few more of these if they did a good job.... Well they're not going to get far. I mean, the triangular prism is usually pretty sharp, but that only really works till security shows up.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

In particular, the statement "Nothing is perfect, even the judges." really saddened me. Whether intended or not, I read this as "The judges have given awards to the wrong teams." Which is either ludicrous or reprehensible.

I really don't understand how you can come to this conclusion. I think it's a 100% certainty that the judges have given awards to the wrong team. No question in my mind whatsoever that it's happened before, and will happen again. I think it'd be naive to pretend otherwise, that some judges don't have preconceived biases, known or not.

When I was a student in high school I was with a group of people from another team that was flat out told by a judge that this particular group of judges doesn't like to give awards to teams who always win them, to "give the little guy a chance".

I don't see that it's any different than insinuating the referees aren't perfect, which we all know is 100% true. Why is it suddenly taboo to say the judges aren't perfect?

Most of these people probably don't do this every year. They don't know much about FIRST. They come in on Thursday, learn how to do their job as best as they can, spend two days trying to subjectively choose between 30-60 different robots/designs/teams/etc that they probably don't *really* fully understand, no matter how good the students are at explaining them. Obviously they'll get it wrong from time to time.

You think teams don't embellish? Of course they do. The judges don't know any better. If the robot is marginally effective on the field, and a team gives a good story about how sensors control their robot to do so and so really innovative functions, and their drive has xyz innovative qualities, how will they know the difference? They don't see this stuff everyday like we do. It may not be obvious who's full of BS and has a robot that really doesn't do what it says it does, or if they've really done the outreach things they say they have, etc.

[dsmoker]

Who's to say that a "wrong" team got an award? I mean, these awards are subjective, and it's the judge's call. There most certainly is more than one team qualified to receive each award each year, and, ultimately, it's the judge's call which way to go. I'm not sure how we can say that they made the wrong call by choosing between worthy teams.

Also, with respect to not being allowed to release demographic info., I got our info. by searching the internet. There are many sites (eg. greatschools) where this information is available for virtually every public school across the US.

[Mark McLeod]

Team 116 asked Q&A the demographics question:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8776