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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2007, 17:54
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday View Post
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.
My understanding has been that nothing, or nearly nothing, of registration fees go toward hosting regional events. I know a lot of others who're under the same impression, so if that's not true -- or if that isn't a consistent explanation across all events -- it'd be nice for someone to set us straight.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 18:13
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday View Post
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.
In 2002 I remember the WRRF looking into holding Cal Games at the San Jose State Event Center (same place the SVR is held). At that time it was ~$7,000 a day to use the venue. That may have been a discounted price, since it was an educational venture, and the venue is owned by the university, so I'm not sure.

I'm sure there's plenty of regionals held at places that are much more expensive.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 18:34
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

I have no idea what the goals and objectives of IRI 2007 were other than providing a rocking competition this summer. It also provided an excellent opportunity to take a moment and savor where FIRST has come from, where FIRST is, and where it could possibly go - in a high school gym. It was a total blast.

At some point, a tier system or districting system may need to be looked at regarding FRC teams. We may not be there yet in all areas across the board but there appear to be regions that need to start addressing growth needs now. This can be used as a pilot program as is stated, for learning and developing, and it has great models to work from, in many ways, in off season events like IRI.

The deal with homework is that it works. There have been dedicated teams who have done their homework and as this continues, options will need to be looked at and explored.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 19:08
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday View Post
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.
The Carolina Coliseum, USC's older arena (which may or may not be standing in ten years due to most of the main tenants, the Columbia Inferno hockey team and USC's journalism school in the basement, moving elsewhere) charges $4500 a day for the venue. That's just to get yourself an empty arena--the total costs, I bet, are actually far higher.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 19:25
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Ballpark figures for the Georgia Dome seem to put the stadium at about $25,000 per day and the pits based upon salable square footage, but I'm not sure how that'd apply explicitly to us. At published rates, though, you'd be looking at about $170 per team, it seems. If there are 500 teams at the event between FLL, FTC and FRC and they all get about the same pit area, we're talking a cost for salable square footage in the neighborhood of $90,000.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 19:28
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

The SBPLI event is $200,000 (total cost) in the college arena we use, and the funding is all raised locally. One of the big concerns is that if the regional grows, then the full size arena we'd have to transition to is much more expensive to rent and, hence, riskier to find sustainable funding for. If our funds run short, frills--such as A/V--get cut.

I believe FIRST does provide financial support to regionals that fall short in their independent fundraising. Back in 2000 when our regional began, one of the home office's big concerns, when a new regional started up, was that it become independently sustainable.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 20:15
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

The top concern of all FIRST teams (from all programs) that come to NEMO meetings is NOT funding (that's #2). The top concern is recruiting and retaining mentors. I think we need to focus on sustaining teams and assisting rookies by creating supportive mentoring programs in conjunction with looking at lowering costs.

There are hidden costs to every event (meaning, things you wouldn't even dream of...). Some of the ones I've experienced: per-table and per-chair rental fees (think about that the next time you sit down to eat lunch at a venue!), per-tablecloth fees. Electrician on call. Safety personnel staffing. Building Manager on call. Facilities staff to set up pits, etc. and break them down. Food and beverages for volunteers, t-shirts. Medallions and trophies (huge costs).Custodian fees, even if they cannot empty the garbage cans in your playing field arena because they don't belong to the union that THOSE custodians belong to so you end up emptying the garbage anyway, plus pay for two of them to be there all day... , AV equipment cost is huge, DJ services, floor covering, microphone battery replacement (yes, I did incur that fee), printing costs for signage, banners, name badges, etc., judges' shirts, UHaul Rental to move field etc, US flag purchase (it didn't come with the venue), two-way radios for volunteers, playing fields, controllers, field elements, pipe and drape, area roping, etc., the list goes on and on.
IF you don't end up with sponsors then the costs are paid for by the team registration. I'd LOVE to get $500 per team for my FTC event so that I could add some cool lighting or better AV services, but FTC limits our registration fees to $300 at most to make it affordable.
My FTC event is a mere three weeks before the local FRC regional - we will be drawing on the same geographic pool of volunteers to staff both events. As FTC grows (28% growth this year in registered, paid teams per my calculations), so will the establishment of FTC qualifiers before the Championship Tournaments - and there are only so many sponsors, so many volunteers, so many venues and so many days in the calendar.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 23:26
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Yes there are a lot of hidden costs that come up in these events. I am sure that Kettering is eating a lot of cost to hold this event. They have been holding an off season event for many years and have the experience to hold this event. How many other collages could hold this even to help keep the costs down? I think it could be done. I don't ever see a FRC team in every school but it doesn’t hurt to try. Just like trying to hold low cost events in schools may be hard but we should try.
I remember how hard it is to start a new team, it can be overwhelming. I believe that anything we can do to help them is a must. It is too easy for them to fall flat and quit. I know our team will be there to help the new teams and I bet many other mentors will also be there
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Unread 13-12-2007, 10:41
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

There are also FIRST mandates to make each event have a familiar look and feel resulting in expenses each regional has to shoulder, for instance, this year FIRST is going to use electronic banners to display the primary sponsors at an additional rental cost of ~$5,000.

The rational behind robot shipping often comes down to insurance mandates (as well as union rules at large venues), and insurance can be a big invisible expense.
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Unread 13-12-2007, 11:53
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
this year FIRST is going to use electronic banners to display the primary sponsors at an additional rental cost of ~$5,000.
What does an electronic banner add to the competition. Seems like an added cost without any real useful return.
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Unread 13-12-2007, 11:58
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Ugh. If anyone was at Championships, did they really like those giant screens and their tendency to show ads between matches? The old blue banners next to the screen are cheaper and easier to transport.
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Unread 13-12-2007, 12:50
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Because Long Star Regional has typically fallen at the end of the competition season, I had followed some commentary regarding the electronic banners as a detraction, etc. So at Lone Star, I wanted to observe the screens and see for myself. They were great. For me personally, screens at Lone Star were easily read and understood and the sponsor banners looked professional and tasteful.

There are and have been dedicated sponsors that have supported FIRST and the teams since the beginning. I understand that it is costly to acknowledge them in this manner but at the same time, promoting our sponsors and recognizing their dedication to FIRST is an important part of the partnership.

At the Central Texas FLL event this past weekend, I had an opportunity to meet some of the VIPs that were visiting the different teams during judging. Their eyes were sparkling and their enthusiasm was contagious. They loved it and they were very grateful to the volunteers and mentors that support the efforts of FLL and FIRST. The event was held in a high school gym and the place was rocking.

The venues have become important to many and the costs have become a major factor in what we have gotten used to. What people really care about and see though, is the inspiration and recognition of science and technology shining in the eyes of the students, the mentors, the volunteers, the VIPs, the sponsors. It's pretty incredible. A balance can be found.
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Unread 13-12-2007, 13:39
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by corpralchee View Post
What does an electronic banner add to the competition. Seems like an added cost without any real useful return.
It removes waste of both time and material.
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Unread 13-12-2007, 14:47
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Back on topic...

As FIRST grows, a new models for Regionals need to be tested and evaluated. Sure, there may be questions about how exactly this event will unfold, but I think it is better to try it out and see what develops.

Folks... this is a good thing. If problems happen, then those are things that will need to be address by FIRST administration as these growth models are developed over the next few years. If this type of event is good, we will know soon. If things about it are not good, then we will also know soon. I'm for saying "let's give this a try."

I had the opportunity to listen to Pat and Gail talk about this event a couple of months ago, and I offered to help them make this thing work. They've asked me to be the head referee and I'm looking forward to this chance to help. Count me in as head ref.

Andy B.
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Unread 20-02-2008, 23:00
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Thumbs up Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Well, first off, as much as it sounds good, there are many reasons there will never be a FRC team in every high school, I don't care what state you're from. Even if money was taken out of the equation, personalities and other administrator's priorities cannot be.

I understand you want to help out the rookies by giving them an opportunity to shake out their designs. I think it is unfair they get to play with their robots before a regional and after ship date. Do the veterans from MI have a different ship date than the rest of the country? I think not.
I think it is very fair. My team is a small team who has never been able to do more then just the 1 competition. Do you remember what it was like to be a rookie. More than likely most of the teams who come won't even have a robot fully built. I can't speak for any other state, but here in MI we tend to help each other as much as possible. We hold mini scrimmages before ship, we help each other during build. Not just online either. I personally helped 4 other teams the day before and day of ship. Monday night I didn't get to bed until 3 AM. Our robot was finished and others needed help. I hope others do this as well.

Instead of criticizing, come join us. I think it is going to be a ton of fun. We are doing things a little different. We will have donated prizes like batteries, tools etc instead of trophies. Kettering who is the top engineering school out there has graciously donated the space for this fun event.

Last edited by maltz1881 : 20-02-2008 at 23:03.
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