Making heads or tails of the new announcement...

[Matt Leese]

I believe my first response to this, when I heard about it, was dissappointment. Namely, the first reason is that my team doesn't qualify to go. But I think the larger part of it is the way that they were picking teams to go. Perhaps I miss read the feelings of the team representatives at the New England Team Forum (and obviously I was not at the other forum locations), but the distinct impression I got was that very few people wanted nationals limited based on past preformance; and this is precisely what FIRST gave us. I suppose we can ignore the fact that this virtually excludes any rookies from competiting in nationals. We can also overlook the fact that teams that have large amounts of money have a much easier time going to nationals (multiple regionals = multiple awards much more easily). I think my biggest problem with this is that winning is what FIRST is not about. And this is what this arrangement for nationals rewards. Or perhaps I'm just still a bit upset over not being able to go at all. See you guys in Florida in 2003.

Matt

[patrickrd]

I have to prepare for a team meeting tonight where I unfortunately have to break the news that we are not going to nationals, so I do not have sufficient time to go into detail... But here's an analytical look at what this limitation does... I don't mean to protest the decision, but rather to critique it's likely effects (and these are NOT necessarily bad effects)...

(1) Teams that receive certain awards in previous years qualify for nationals automatically. Some of these awards are only awarded to teams that attend nationals! Therefore, teams who do not attend nationals this year will have a decreased chance of attending nationals next year.

(2) Given this, probability believes that next year there will be more even numbered teams at nationals than there will be odd numbered teams at nationals this year. Even numbered teams will in fact have a permanant advantage over odd numbered teams in the future (although this advantage does decrease every year, and eventually it will even out).

(3) The same logic applies to 2002 rookies and all future rookies. Rookies will have a much more difficult time qualifying to go to nationals than other teams.

(4) Current year regional winners -- how many teams can afford to go to nationals on three weeks notice? I know the logistics of getting air tickets would be virtually impossible, or extremely pricey. Instead, nationals will be a collection of pseudorandom teams (depending on the modulo of the year) and teams that performed well in past years but not necessarily this one.

(5) The term "National Champion" should no longer be attributed to winning teams -- given that not all teams are allowed to go to nationals. You may argue that one such team could qualify by winning a regional, but i don't know any teams that can pull $15k+ to get there. Plus, probabilty will tell you there's probably about a 60-80% chance that the winning team this year is an even number. That alone suggests that there can be no national true champion -- only a winner of the Epcot Invitational Competiton.

(6) Wealthy teams who attend multiple regional will qualify much more often than less-wealthy teams -- not because of a better robot, simply because they have more chances to qualify for the current year's nationals as well as future nationals. I would strongly urge FIRST to use only the first regional that a team attends as a qualifier for nationals.

Given all these, and the situation FIRST was faced with, I honestly think they came up with an alright solution. Every solution with regard to limitation will have it's disadvantage and built in biases. While I do think the FIRST community would have been better served if FIRST had split nationals over two weekends (very little additional cost; all teams can go), if we have to limit nationals, my quarrels are minor points only. I also think it is great that we have more regionals! This is one very positive side effect of limiting nationals, and I look forward to attending some of these new regionals. And if your team cannot go to nationals next year, you can always elect to travel to distant regional in it's place (and probably a lot cheaper than Disney accomodations).

Patrick

PS Let's hope the scoring for the 2002 game is a lot simpler than the qualification-to-nationals.

[Kyle Fenton]

Most likely the reason behind this is the cost for Disney.

I remember in a ABC News report said that Disney was cutting back or canceling funds for its usual donations because of the poor economy, and now this fear of someone blowing things up, which lead to few customers, meaning fewer dollars to give away.

If its money, here is what you should do to cut cost

1. Get rid of the team party, yeah it will be a downer but I rather be there than not be there. We can always locate a simple team party off any Disney party.

2. Get rid of the air-condition, I am sure that was a high cost. I can bring a fan with an ice cube in front of it.

3. Get rid of all the dizzily effects, light the lights, fireworks, and the doves.

4. Get rid of the big screen and just replace it with a high-resolution rear-projection model.

I don't know, any other way to cut cost?

[Jessica Boucher]

A response from an old teammate of mine:

hey, i want my free can of soda
dean better mail it to me

[Anthony S.]

I think FIRST had to do smoething in order to cut down on people, because too many people will also break a fire code and it would look really bad for the Fire Dept. to come and shut down Nats. So FIRST did what they had to do.

To all of you odd number teams who are saying you can't go to Nats and having to break the news to your team, YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE!! Don't lose hope, you can still do very well at regionals and have a chance to go. If you're not able to go to Nats, try going to two regionals, sure it won't be the same but it will be better than nothing.

Two regionals brings up another question. If you register for two regionals, then find out you can go to Nats, what happens if you had two competitions in your budget, and the second regional you win and have the chance to go to Nats, what happens then?(I hope you understand my question

FIRST could cut down, is to limit the number of people from each team allowed to go, like give the team a limit as to how many people to bring, is that a good idea??

[mnkysp6353]

I agree with Kyle. My team is one of the teams attending the April 4th regional and i don't know how we are going to pull it off. My faculty sponsor doesn't know about the new rules yet and is all ready kinda against going to florida. She will probaly go crazy and say no. But maybe not, if i can go i am looking forward to meeting the hampster from some team on this BB. And also if any team is going to socal and cant find boarding give me a call you guys can stay at my house.

[tjrage_25]

I have three problems with this new system.

1) How you did last year should have NO influence on whether or not you can attend the nationals. The game is completely new this year, and is never similar from one year to the next. So why should the winners of a different game get a definite yes on going to the nationals this year? How any of the regional or national winners did last year does not necessarily determine how good they will be this year.

2) Same as above, any of any team's standings or awards from last year should not effect this! The slate is wiped clean, and this competition is supposed to be the complete OPPOSITE of last years competition in the aspect of offense/defense.

3) The even over odd registration for the nationals, I just don't get how you can determine if a team is worthy of going to the nationals by team number.

I do however agree with setting aside spots in the nationals for teams who have done well this year and having to register in a regional to register for the nationals.

I can see that by doing this FIRST has angered many teams and sponsors, and I can see no good coming from this system at all. I strongly urge FIRST to change their mind about what they are doing. Going back to the old system and just lowering the number of teams that can attend could solve all this.

[Carolyn Duncan]

If FIRST is goint to limit nationals/championships this much what about kick off? I know plenty of people who look at kickoff as something really great that they wouldn't want to miss. I mean going to Dean's house is a big thrill for the adults who go up there, the same as Disney is for just about everyone at nationals. Will this limit the teams allowed to send representatives? I think it should, but that doesn't really mean anything. What would happen if many of the teams who cannot attend show up as spectators? Will they be turned away? That wouldn't really be a good PR move. I agree with the cutting costs idea, there were many things that could be done differently. That is, if cost is a factor. I am not saying this as a member of a team that has not already been granted the ability to attend, the fact is that I truely don't know if we do. I really think these guidlines have focused FIRST's attention on winning and that saddens me. Maybe we should plan to have web hugs at all of the regionals. That's just my $0.02 on this subject.
Edit: I feel bad for the teams who were rookies last year and had small teams. Recruiting this year will be nearly impossible. i think these new guidlines will drop the size of FIRST competions and interest. It has changed and I think people will turn more to BB, RW, JYW, etc. Also, what about teams from 1992 who did not compete in one or more years since then? Do they get to go?

[Wayne C.]

I found the letter today too and it totally floored me. Our team has been in this thing since 1997 and it seems like we too may not have a chance to get to Orlando this year since we are an odd number.

Here are a few thoughts-

1. Teams should be restricted to attending only one regional. The idea of Rookie regionals where the veterans may have an easy win is bad enough, but to be able to shop around until you get what you need to go is unfair. To get 5 points based on prior year's performance means you swept the field at one regional (definite qualifier) or went shopping and got a number of awards at several. How does a low budget team even think of competing?


2. Second year odd number teams with low level sponsors will probably drop from the competition like flies. The Florida trip is a big seller for motivating a FIRST team and many teams go just for the experience. I thought that FIRST was trying to reach ALL kids, not just those fortunate to have big business behind them in their area.

3. While what they did was great for FIRST and they should be commended, grandfathering the past Chairman Awards winners and original teams permanently is awful. To be able to attend every year regardless of performance does not match the idea of a Championship.

4. All of the regionals within our section of the country are being held on the same day. If we even thought of going to others it would be a major trip and time committment during the school year. Was this deliberate?

What the awful game last year didn't do to knock the wind out of FIRST I'm afraid this policy will. People want to go to Orlando and be a part of the big event. Our kids work all year to develop the funds for Fla. Now it is a matter of chance and the opinion of judges. How can you plan and promote a development program based on that?

WC

[Elgin Clock]

If nationals is going to be limited this year then why did FIRST even bring up the point that teams were complaining of no hotel spaces?? It seems to me that since there definately is going to be more elbow room in Disney this year then this is a mute point.

Besides that I am utterly shocked in the approach FIRST has taken. I knew something had to be done but I just don't know if this was a good move on both FIRST's and Disney's part.






THE FUTURE IS UNKNOWN, NOW JUST A LITTLE MORE THAN BEFORE!

[Andy Baker]

Many people are reacting quickly to this decision by FIRST and FIRST's Board of Directors. I would guess that it was a tough decision for them to make.

Let's look at the facts in this situation:

1. FIRST will not leave Disney. FIRST has never posed this as an option, and this has always been non-negotiable.

2. FIRST has a 40% growth rate. IF they were going to let Nationals expand this year, then they would've had to limit it within the next year or two. Limiting nationals in some way was bound to happen.

3. FIRST has discussed the option of limiting Nationals for the past two years. They limited it slightly this past year, but not much. This could've happened last year.

4. FIRST did a good job this year of polling us for opinions. They came to our turf for the FIRST Forums, so more of us could weigh in. They watch these popular forums on Chief's site to get the opinions of what people think, as they wade through the numerous posts.

5. Travel to Nationals is and always will be very costly. Students really need to look at this from their sponsors' and parents' viewpoints. Teams do alot of fundraising (including ours) in order to go to Nationals... to go to Walt Disney World. Many teams spend between $15-$25k on travel alone to Nationals.

Looking at these facts, I suggest these changes of opinions:

FIRST knows that there will be backlash to this opinion. This was a tough decision for them to make. Let's look at who made this decision... the Board of Directors. These are people who make multi-million dollar decisions weekly. Maybe I'm gullible... maybe I have too much blind faith... but I would guess that they made this decision for good reasons.

We really gotta not focus on Nationals so much. Many people look forward to Nationals as a time to visit friends on other teams, and to check out everyone's robot. Everyone can still do this... this is a free event that is open to the public. If your team doesn't qualify, you can still go and enjoy the event. This sounds a bit crass... but it is the situation that we have to deal with now.

The fact that many of you are saying that you are "shocked" and "floored" is suprising. If you are shocked, then you have not been listening to FIRST for the past two years. They have been saying that we need to focus more on Regionals and they cannot handle expanding Nationals. This is not new information.

Think of this... rookie teams who are learning about FIRST and beginning to understand the competition structure are ALWAYS suprised that the National Championship was previously open to all teams. One of a rookie team's first question is always... "how do we qualify for Nationals?"

My main point is this: FIRST had to limit Nationals. We gotta deal with it.

What we may have a chance to change is how teams qualify for Nationals... please, let's discuss this, as opposed to simply ranting about the fact that Nationals was limited.

We have been constructive before... we can do it again. Don't be destructive. I would bet money that FIRST's qualification rules are not carved in stone... but the fact that they will limit nationals is here to stay.

I'll start: I would be willing to give up the rule about giving automatic qualification to the 28 original teams. This is simply my opinon. I can see a rule that gives an auto-birth to all teams who have been in it every year, but not to all of the original 28 teams. (oops, I changed my mind on this... see the post below).

Andy B.

[Andy Baker]

Originally posted by Andy Baker

I'll start: I would be willing to give up the rule about giving automatic qualification to the 28 original teams. This is simply my opinon. I can see a rule that gives an auto-birth to all teams who have been in it every year, but not to all of the original 28 teams.

Andy B.

Oh, my... the more I think about this rule to let the original 28 teams have an automatic entry to Nationals, the more I do not like it.

Our team gets one of these auto-qualifiers, since we have been in it since '92.

I'm looking at this in two different ways:
1. Our team gives it our usual best effort. We would attend 2 Regionals, and hopefully win a Technical award or possilby even win a Regional, although we have only won one during the past 5 years. IF this happens, then we could be taking another team's "spot" that they could've won by winning the Technical Award or winning the Regional. Realistically, there could be some teams who would feel animosity towards us and our kids. Knowing how the students on team 45 are, they would not feel good about winning an award that could've been another team's ticket to Nationals. This is not fair to our students. They deserve to be proud of any award or accomplishment our team gets.

2. We could try not to get any awards... while this would initially give the appearance of being good sports, this could turn in to appearing arrogant. We try hard for multiple reasons, and one of them is to win. Competition is healthy, and going into a Regional trying not to win would be a difficult pill to swallow.

I don't know about this... each scenario is not a good position to be in. I'd rather not have this auto-entry for the original 28 teams, nor for the 6 who have been in it since '92.

This will make our team do some soul-searching. This is simply my opinion for now... I don't know how the rest of the team feels. I was really debating about discussing this, but I thought that we needed to start getting productive about the decision FIRST has made.

Andy B.

[Wayne C.]

Responding to above-

If this is truly going to be a National Championship it should not have any accommodation for any team other than those who have proven themselves to be viable this season. No team should know they are going to Florida until they win this year. That way all can face the nightmare of trying to transport 30-40 people across country on 3-4 weeks notice. It sure seems like "the old favorites" have all the bases covered and an unfair advantage.

This whole change seems to be simple "downsizing" of FIRST, much like big business lays off thousands when they downsize. Ask the American workforce how that feels.

After years of wholehearted support of FIRST and busting a gut to faise funds for the Nationals trip this year to be told that we may not be going on the week of registration is a hard pill to swallow. Yes, they did proclaim a need to do something about the Disney size problem. But on the same token Dean has publicly stated that his goal is to get every Fortune 500 country as a sponsor. How do you promote growth while downsizing the program?

The Orlando experience is a main reason kids get interested in FIRST. Sorry but the prospect of taking a team to a second regional in some northern city in March where there is nothing to do during leisure time is not a happy prospect. What do I tell my seniors who have been working hard for their Fla trip and now may not go because we are an odd number team?

The solution is finding a larger venue, not settling for a smaller competition.

My still angry 2 cents

WC

[Carll Pallokat]

I understand about limiting the numbers at national but as a team leader we have to budget and raise funds in order to attend nationals. Winning a regional and then trying to make reservations and even having enough money in four weeks before nationals gives me more gray hairs.

How about nationals in August.

[Paul Copioli]

Normally you won't see my posts in a debate such as this, but I would like to give the students my perspective. Nationals, the Championship, whatever we call it; it was inevitable that we would have to qualify. So it is here sooner, oh well. I still say that the FIRST experience is mostly in the 6 weeks (or 6 months in some team's cases; we have been having meetings since the start of September). I have students by my side 6 days a week, 2 to 12 hours per day. We are designing, discussing, cutting parts, revising parts, testing, analyzing, drinking lots of Dew, and sometimes cleaning. The experience and exposure that the students on 217 get is something I could have never imagined possible and THAT, my friends, is what matters. Sure, the competitions are fun, but the competitions aren't FIRST; we are FIRST. We can make the FIRST experience worthwhile or we can make it worthless. One last thing, if the travel is the part you are missing, go to the Toronto regional. West coast teams go to the Midwest regionals or East Coast regionals, East Coast and Midwest teams go to the West Coast regionals. There are plenty of opportunities to travel, not just Nats.

-Paul