Lifting Robots off of the Bar

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Posted by P.J. Baker.

Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 3/28/2000 5:35 AM MST



I see two references to robots being lifted off of the center bar in Chicago. I had thought that one of the updates said this was not allowed, so I went back and checked:


The answer to Q78 in Update 3 says (in Part): You may not try to lift an opposing robot of the bar, per rule DQ12.

However, the answer to Q72, also in update 3 says: If a robot is pulling itself onto the bar, and another robot is in the way, it is okay to keep pulling yourself onto the bar.

I would guess that the way to interpret this is that anything goes, as long as you are trying to get your machine off of the ground. My question for everyone who has been to a regional is: Is that how the refs have been calling it, or have they also been allowing robots to be lifted off of the bar by robots that were not trying to lift themselves? Do tell.

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST


In Reply to: Lifting Robots off of the Bar posted by P.J. Baker on 3/28/2000 5:35 AM MST:



I don't know about the legality of things, but I can tell you that in the last match of QF3 at the MWR in which Hammond (#71) & Visteon (#201) were up against 3-Dimensional Systems (#1) & Haworth (#74), Team #1 methodically lifted Team #201 off the bar.

They were not trying to get on the bar unless you say that they were 'making room' for themselves.

At the time I didn't think about whether this was in the spirit of things or not. It was very exciting I can tell you that.

Bottom line, no call or warning by the refs.

Perhaps a clarification is in order.

Joe J.

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Posted by Erin.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #1, The Juggernauts, from Oakland Technical Center-Northeast Campus and 3-Dimensional Services.

Posted on 3/28/2000 9:21 AM MST


In Reply to: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST:



I can't say if we were being very nice or not, but we also did that to Delphi Knights. No call was made, so I am assuming, since we did it a second time, it is legal.

-erin, team 1

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Posted by P.J. Baker.

Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 3/28/2000 9:32 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Erin on 3/28/2000 9:21 AM MST:



You are correct, since the referees' decisions are final and they did not call it either time, lifting another team off of the bar was 'legal'. This does not mean that they properly enforced the rule as stated by FIRST.

I certainly do not want to imply that anyone did anything that they knew was not allowed just to see if they could get away with it. But I do think that the rules, as interpreted by FIRST in update #3, make it clear that lifting another machine off of the bar is not allowed unless the lifting machine is also trying to get on the bar.

'Spirit of the Competition' wise, I don't have a problem with lifting another team off of the bar, but there are a couple of changes that I will try to have made to the Bobcat if lifting is allowed. I will see if I can get a clear ruling from FIRST and the refs at the NE Regional this week. I will post whatever I find out.

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Posted by Mike McIntyre.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #1, Juggernaut, from Oakland Technical Center Northeast and 3 Dimensional Services.

Posted on 4/2/2000 4:59 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by P.J. Baker on 3/28/2000 9:32 AM MST:



Let me clarify Erin's comment: when she says we've gotten people off the bar before, she didn't mean by lifting them straight into the air. What we try to do is push them off and, since we are an angular robot going up an angular plane, the pushing does have an upward component to the force. We push them low and try to swing them out and off of the bar; although we are unable to get most robots off this way, we do sometimes manage to clear a place for ourselves. Sometimes, the robot being pushed falls on top of us and hurts us pretty badly (as the Delphi Knights did in Michigan). The instance everybody's been writing about was not a case of us trying something 'just to see if (we) could get away with it.' We had fallen on our face and were righting ourselves. The first thing I asked the drivers after the match was 'Did you try to lift Rochester up?' and they replied immediately that they were actually just trying to get themselves up but were happily surprised to see (them) lift right off the bar as we righted ourselves.

Personally, I would have a problem with widescale lifting of other teams off of the bar, (I think there will be too many destroyed robots out there) and, now that we know how to do it, everybody else with any kind of an elevator system can do it too. I am not sure where FIRST will be able to draw a clear line, though: whenever you push a robot that's clamped onto a bar you naturally apply a torque and an upward rotation occurs. I'm glad I'm not a ref...

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Posted by P.J. Baker.

Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 4/2/2000 5:29 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by P.J. Baker on 3/28/2000 9:32 AM MST:



I must admit that I did not get around to getting the ruling cleared up this weekend. I could only make it for lunch on Thursday and Friday (it's very nice to work 15 minutes from the venue), and the team was too busy taking 4 POUNDS out of the Bobcat so that we could make weight. BTW - after working the bugs out the Bobcat ran great this weekend. We seeded 14, and would have been much higher if we had been on the winning side of that 33-31 round on Friday. But I digress. I am happy with Mike's explanation and believe that the Refs made the right call. I will still try to get the ruling clarified by FIRST down at EPCOT, ironically though, it will be harder to tell you all what I find out.

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Posted by Erin.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #1, The Juggernauts, from Oakland Technical Center-Northeast Campus and 3-Dimensional Services.

Posted on 3/28/2000 9:25 AM MST


In Reply to: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST:



Oh, Joe- you have to admit, when rochester RAMMED into comBBAT and threw them off, it was much more exciting, yet still- no call- and they even got the 'best defense' for that round. I will say, that was way much more exciting. And it was even better that they were our alliance in that round!

-erin

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Posted by Scott Strickland.

Engineer on team #21, ComBBAT, from Astronaut & Titusville High School and Boeing/NASA.

Posted on 3/28/2000 6:41 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Erin on 3/28/2000 9:25 AM MST:



Having been pushed off the bar twice at Chicago, we have made a minor mod that will prevent it from happening again. Yes, we feel we should have gotten a one of the 'Best Play' trophies, since it was our robot that did the flip.

Warning to all... simple hooks are not good enough. We raised 25 inches off the ramp and were pushed off. We stayed 1 inch off the ramp and were pushed off.

The refs allow it all. I thought it was like the puck last year, if you are on the ramp or on the bar anything goes. You are trying to lower your opponents score by pushing them off the ramp or bar, right?

We have humbly learned our lesson.

Scott

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Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/29/2000 4:20 PM MST


In Reply to: FIRST will have to remove the bar to get us off it!!!! posted by Scott Strickland on 3/28/2000 6:41 PM MST:



FIRST isn't going to appreciate it much.

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Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/29/2000 4:13 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Erin on 3/28/2000 9:25 AM MST:



We were going for the bar. You were lifting.

And if you look close, you could almost see their hooks weren't really well on, way too angled. The slightest nudge would just roll them off.

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Posted by Raul.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 3/28/2000 2:28 PM MST


In Reply to: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST:



#201 is one tough little robot.
There was another situation at the MWR where #201 was tipped over in the middle of the round, was set straight by their partner, got on the bar and won the match. This was one of those special moments that stuck in my mind because it seemed that they were tipped over illegally (but no call was made). They were in the middle of the field (not near the ramp), their lift was down and their opponent seemed to lift them (maybe accidentally)to tip them over.

Raul

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Posted by Erin.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #1, The Juggernauts, from Oakland Technical Center-Northeast Campus and 3-Dimensional Services.

Posted on 3/29/2000 10:33 AM MST


In Reply to: #201 can sure take a fall and get it done posted by Raul on 3/28/2000 2:28 PM MST:



201 was lifted back up by Big Mo- 314. Big Mo did this intentionally- they put their basket in 'limbo' position and raised it up like they would to unload balls. this reacted against the top of 201's basket and popped them back up. That happened to be my personal favorite move- one I would have ruled as the 'Play of the Day'. I bet many other robots could do that as well. Improvise!

-erin

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Posted by Michael Ciavaglia.

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Interior Systems.

Posted on 3/30/2000 6:44 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: #201 can sure take a fall and get it done posted by Erin on 3/29/2000 10:33 AM MST:



I stayed to watch that match. I don't remember the time the tipping occured in the match, but I do remember walking out with about 1:00 minute (maybe more) left. I thought, 'It's over, there is no chance for #201 and #314.'

Wow, was I wrong.

Even though I didn't see it. This was my PLAY-OF-THE-DAY!!

GREAT JOB!!

Mike C.

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Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/29/2000 4:11 PM MST


In Reply to: #201 can sure take a fall and get it done posted by Raul on 3/28/2000 2:28 PM MST:



One of the team member's parents filmed the whole thing, and you can see the bot that flipped us lower down, get under us, and raise back up. (Scissor like wheels) So I would say it was intentional.


(btw thanks for the compliments)

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Posted by Brett R..

Student on team #201, Viste-Feds, from Rochester High School and Visteon Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/29/2000 4:09 PM MST


In Reply to: #1 lifted #201 -- no call... posted by Joe Johnson on 3/28/2000 7:26 AM MST:



I spent 4 hours reading team updates to clarify this after the fact and am very disgruntled to say it was completely illegal. (unless of course the refs will listen to 'making room for themselves' ha)

Would you say they lifted us off the ground that time when they were trying to grab the black ball out of our basket? We did get partway airborn, that's a DQ, and they were really close to our electronics (another DQ).