Blocking a robot driving clock-wise

[Alon S]

Sup ^^

A question to all u game rules experts-

is it legal to block a robot that is driving clock-wise? for example- blocking them while they try to drive backwards after an arm hurdle?

thanks alot,

Alon
team STeampunk 1577

[hipsterjr]

If you are talking about post hurdle and before they retract their arm. And by being behind them, you want keep them from being able to retract their arm.

I would say yes, this is legal (to a point) because they are no longer protected by the hurdling rule. But I would use caution in this strategy because of the excessive contact and possible severe damage to the hurdler may incur penalties for you. If do, please be gracious about it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by hipsterjr

If you are talking about post hurdle and before they retract their arm. And by being behind them, you want keep them from being able to retract their arm.

I would say yes, this is legal (to a point) because they are no longer protected by the hurdling rule. But I would use caution in this strategy because of the excessive contact and possible severe damage to the hurdler may incur penalties for you. If do, please be gracious about it.

Someone suggested something like this in the YMTC thread about blocking hurdlers. The problems with this strategy are two: First, you risk a pinning penalty (and remember, it's six seconds before the penalty, as opposed to ten). Second, that won't affect some arm/lift robots, so you just wasted your time.

[Scott358]

I'd suggest this is a viable defensive strategy against those hurdlers who have to reach over the overpass, then back up.

3 points to consider...

1. You may have to take the 6 second pinning rule into account (but it is a question as to whether or not parking behind someone without pushing them is pinning). This would be a FIRST Q&A question.

2. Depending upon your drive train and the hurdler's drive train, they may just push you out of the way and/or drive sideways and get away (if they have that capability).

3. It will depend upon the refs. Last year, there was not supposed to be intentional contact outside the bumper zone, but there where many defensive robots who used end effectors to stop offensive robots from scoring, and it was not called. I'd suggest a brief discussion with the head ref to see what he thinks about it if you plan on using this.

I look forward to hearing other comments, as we re-designed our robot just so we didn't have to reach over the overpass due to this defensive strategy.

[zivo123]

Hi alon,
we have checked this possibillity a couple of times, and as stated by EricH above me, you would be penilized for pinning, if you dont move within 6 seconds:


<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.

see also G42 again and it will help clarify things out.

good luck in israeli regionals!

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by zivo123

Hi alon,
we have checked this possibillity a couple of times, and as stated by EricH above me, you would be penilized for pinning, if you dont move within 6 seconds:


<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.

see also G42 again and it will help clarify things out.

good luck in israeli regionals!

I disagree-if you are "behind" them in a counter-clockwise direction, you hitting them would (I think) be considered a signal to pass by you-this would mean that (unless they were hurdling), they would have to move within 6 seconds, not you.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I disagree-if you are "behind" them in a counter-clockwise direction, you hitting them would (I think) be considered a signal to pass by you-this would mean that (unless they were hurdling), they would have to move within 6 seconds, not you.

However they cannot move because you are pinning them. You cannot force them to commit a penalty (don't feel like looking up the exact rule) and you are pinning so you are the one that has to move within six seconds.

I would guess that parking behind a robot that cannot move forward due to an appendage will constitute pinning.

The other interesting part of this situation is, does either team really want to be a part of what happens if you go to far and push them into the overpass, toppling them onto your robot?

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

However they cannot move because you are pinning them. You cannot force them to commit a penalty (don't feel like looking up the exact rule) and you are pinning so you are the one that has to move within six seconds.

I would guess that parking behind a robot that cannot move forward due to an appendage will constitute pinning.

The other interesting part of this situation is, does either team really want to be a part of what happens if you go to far and push them into the overpass, toppling them onto your robot?

If they truly could not move, then I guess they could not recieve a penalty and you would be considered impeding (actually didn't notice that part of the rule before!), but unless you are physically pinning their arm against the overpass I doubt that would frequently happen.
More likely, in terms of what I am picturing in my head (which is likely different from what is going on in yours), the robot-with-an-arm could probably get out by turning, etc., and if that was the case, I think arm-robot would be considered to be impeding, even if it could not immediately move forward or backward.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by bduddy

If they truly could not move, then I guess they could not recieve a penalty and you would be considered impeding (actually didn't notice that part of the rule before!), but unless you are physically pinning their arm against the overpass I doubt that would frequently happen.
More likely, in terms of what I am picturing in my head (which is likely different from what is going on in yours), the robot-with-an-arm could probably get out by turning, etc., and if that was the case, I think arm-robot would be considered to be impeding, even if it could not immediately move forward or backward.

Ok, I see what you were talking about now. In that case I would agree. If the arm bot could get out by turning then you would not be pinning. However, I would suggest that the strategic benefits to parking behind an arm bot in a manner that it can still get away (albeit in a slightly longer amount of time) are negligible compared to driving past and either messing with their ball or continuing to score points for your alliance.

[zivo123]

rules to the rescue

i am a freshman, but i understand that every word in the rules is there for a reason:

quote from the manual:
IMPEDING: Preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic.

therefor the robot behind the "arm-robot" can never be called impeding.

and remmember, bunping to pass signals are only possible when "there is no other lane to pass" so unless there are three hurdlers, you cant bump them.

if there are three hurdlers this rule falls in line:

<G43> IMPEDING With Multiple HURDLERS- If multiple ROBOTS are HURDLING simultaneously and effectively blocking the width of the TRACK, then opposing ROBOTS may signal to pass and the HURDLING ROBOT must clear a passing lane within 6 seconds. A PENALTY will be awarded to the HURDLING ROBOT for each violation.

which i think is really clear.

if i have left gray areas, plz let me know



by the way, Alon, binyamina is also part of the Eyal Hershko Mafia so we are kind of allies.. feel free to call me for rule consultation at any time - 0528983573

[Noah Kleinberg]

Based on the way I read the rules, you only count as "impeding" a robot if you're keeping them from going counterclockwise, but not if you prevent them from going clockwise. ("IMPEDING: Preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK
in the direction of traffic."). G40 also says that a robot isn't considered impeding as long as there's a clear passing lane around the robot (this is also in G41 as far as pinning). The question is whether you would consider open space a "passing lane" if the hurdling robot's arm prevents it from using the space.

Edit: Someone beat me to it but I'll leave this here anyway.

[Vikesrock]

The main issue here would not be impeding. Both of you are correct in saying that according to the rules you would not be impeding by preventing motion on the clockwise direction.

The issue is pinning. According to <G41> (quoted below) a robot deemed to be pinning an opposing robot must move to allow the other robot out within 6 seconds of the pinning signal by the referee. If a robot has it's arm up so it cannot proceed forward without tipping and you are behind them such that they cannot back-up or turn I would say you are most certainly pinning and would have to move within 6 seconds of the referee signaling the pin.

<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or
when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT
shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the
opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to
pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being
issued to the ROBOT.

[GaryVoshol]

In past seasons - and we all know that what happened in the past is not necessarily how it will happen now - pinning was called only if a robot was physically holding another robot in contact with the wall or a field element. If there was room that the "pinned" robot could move back and forth, but maybe not maneouver to escape, that was considered to be a design fault of the "pinned" robot, not a penalty. However, once pinning did happen, the pinning robot had to move back 3 feet for 3 seconds, if I recall correctly.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

The main issue here would not be impeding. Both of you are correct in saying that according to the rules you would not be impeding by preventing motion on the clockwise direction.

The issue is pinning. According to <G41> (quoted below) a robot deemed to be pinning an opposing robot must move to allow the other robot out within 6 seconds of the pinning signal by the referee. If a robot has it's arm up so it cannot proceed forward without tipping and you are behind them such that they cannot back-up or turn I would say you are most certainly pinning and would have to move within 6 seconds of the referee signaling the pin.

How are you meant to move in such a way that creates a passing lane for a robot in front of you?

[Scott358]

Originally Posted by zivo123

Hi alon,
we have checked this possibillity a couple of times, and as stated by EricH above me, you would be penilized for pinning, if you dont move within 6 seconds:


<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.

see also G42 again and it will help clarify things out.

good luck in israeli regionals!

Hello Ziv,

When you say you've "checked this possibility a couple times", who did you check with?

From what I see, "impeding" is preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic. This could mean that you have all rights to stop a robot from moving against the direction of traffic by merely parking behind them (as I would not suggest pushing a robot into the overpass).

Also, as Gary has stated (as defined by past experince) pinning was called on a robot that pushed another robot against a field element, but merely parking behind them would not be pushing them. As there is no clear definition of pinning (that I can find), but there is history that you need to be pushing a robot to be pinning them, this does not appear to be pinning.

I'd suggest the answer is not so clear unless asked directly to FIRST Q&A. I'll try to get hold of my team leader to ask, but if anyone else has direct access to ask questions, please do so.