Blocking a robot driving clock-wise

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

How are you meant to move in such a way that creates a passing lane for a robot in front of you?

This is a good point and it will be interesting to see how this situation shakes out if anyone tries it in the week one regionals. The same situation would apply if a robot was pointing towards one of the walls and you pinned them against it, they have a "passing lane" they just cannot go through it because their wheels are perpendicular to it (excluding holonomic systems). I definitely do not think that the intent of the rule was to allow pinning on either the overpass or the walls and I think referee calls will reflect this.

Originally Posted by Scott358

Hello Ziv,

When you say you've "checked this possibility a couple times", who did you check with?

From what I see, "impeding" is preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic. This could mean that you have all rights to stop a robot from moving against the direction of traffic by merely parking behind them (as I would not suggest pushing a robot into the overpass).

Also, as Gary has stated (as defined by past experince) pinning was called on a robot that pushed another robot against a field element, but merely parking behind them would not be pushing them. As there is no clear definition of pinning (that I can find), but there is history that you need to be pushing a robot to be pinning them, this does not appear to be pinning.

I'd suggest the answer is not so clear unless asked directly to FIRST Q&A. I'll try to get hold of my team leader to ask, but if anyone else has direct access to ask questions, please do so.

Does your robot have a parking brake? If not I can't imagine you would be much of a hindrance parking behind an opposing robot. Many robots will plow you out of the way like you aren't even there.

As you said, the only way that we'll truly know would be to ask the Q&A or to wait and see what happens in week 1.

[zivo123]

EDIT- quote from Scott358:
I'd suggest the answer is not so clear unless asked directly to FIRST Q&A. I'll try to get hold of my team leader to ask, but if anyone else has direct access to ask questions, please do so.

*sorry but i dont know how to quote.. i thougt that will work =\ .

believe me Scott that i have already thought about asking in the First Q&A system, but our team is not very orginized, so no one has the login detailes =\. iwould love it if one of you guys could ask instead of me.

i have said that i have checked a couple of times with my teammates, the possibilty of nutrilizing an opponents robot in the way mwntioned, or at least make him do a lot of penelties. from what i saw, you cant "bump-to-pass" him if there is a lane free. if you stand there and prevent him from driving backwards, my guess is, as stated before, that the judges will give you a signal to clear the way, because you are pinning him.

hope i'm more clear this time.. sorry for the misunderstandings..

[Koko Ed]

Is it possible to "hip check" an opposing robot?

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Is it possible to "hip check" an opposing robot?

It depends on your drivetrain, but I certainly don't see anything illegal about it... I'm not sure it would be interpreted as a "signal to pass", though.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by bduddy

It depends on your drivetrain, but I certainly don't see anything illegal about it... I'm not sure it would be interpreted as a "signal to pass", though.

I think it would be pretty obvious what the intent was.

[Cleinhun]

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8436

I think this answers that.
So, yes, it is allowed.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Cleinhun

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8436

I think this answers that.
So, yes, it is allowed.

Good find! Thank you very much.

[zivo123]

GDC "There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match."

just to make sure i understood correctly- a pushing match means that we push each other and if i push him and manage to get a away good for me but if he pushes me and make me tip over? (not to mention i will be tipping over on him..) or even worse break some mechanism??

[Kristian Calhoun]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Does your robot have a parking brake? If not I can't imagine you would be much of a hindrance parking behind an opposing robot. Many robots will plow you out of the way like you aren't even there.

As you said, the only way that we'll truly know would be to ask the Q&A or to wait and see what happens in week 1.

Yes.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by zivo123

GDC "There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match."

just to make sure i understood correctly- a pushing match means that we push each other and if i push him and manage to get a away good for me but if he pushes me and make me tip over? (not to mention i will be tipping over on him..) or even worse break some mechanism??

The GDC is right, as long as the robot that is doing the blocking isn't contacting the robot that is against the overpass. As soon as the blocking robot touches the other robot so it can't move, it's a pinning call.

If a robot intentionally tips another, they are given a Penalty, ranging up to a DQ.

Also, this discussion may be moot, because the arm robots probably have measures in place already to escape this. I'm pretty sure my team does--we've got two, or can easily have two given about ten minutes in the pits.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by EricH

The GDC is right, as long as the robot that is doing the blocking isn't contacting the robot that is against the overpass. As soon as the blocking robot touches the other robot so it can't move, it's a pinning call.

If a robot intentionally tips another, they are given a Penalty, ranging up to a DQ.

Also, this discussion may be moot, because the arm robots probably have measures in place already to escape this. I'm pretty sure my team does--we've got two, or can easily have two given about ten minutes in the pits.

My team as well. It wasn't really intentional, but the way we designed our system to fit in the starting configuration means that we will likely be able to just put our arm down and it should fold back up enough to allow us to clear the overpass, then we could jerk the robot forward and back or put the arm back up to unfold it again.

[Scott358]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Does your robot have a parking brake? If not I can't imagine you would be much of a hindrance parking behind an opposing robot. Many robots will plow you out of the way like you aren't even there.

Since you asked about a parking brake, we do have a program that utilizes encoder feedback to have the drive train attempt to maintain position (i.e. in a zero joystick position, if the encoders sense movement, the bot will attempt to get back to where it was moved from without need to touch the joysticks). I guess this is a type of parking brake?

Without a brake, a robot could also simply park sideways to execute this defense.

Last, once pushed back a bit, you could always push back yourself (which I believe is what the GDC is talking about in their response).

In the end, our robot is a hurdler (you can see the Team 358 video in the robot showcase) , so I don't see our robot playing this type of defensive role, as we'll be hurdling.

[Scott358]

Originally Posted by EricH

The GDC is right, as long as the robot that is doing the blocking isn't contacting the robot that is against the overpass. As soon as the blocking robot touches the other robot so it can't move, it's a pinning call.

If a robot intentionally tips another, they are given a Penalty, ranging up to a DQ.

Also, this discussion may be moot, because the arm robots probably have measures in place already to escape this. I'm pretty sure my team does--we've got two, or can easily have two given about ten minutes in the pits.

When you say "as soon as the blocking robot touchs the other robot"... assuming the blocking robot is simply parked, it would be the hurdling robot making the contact.

This is important to note, as we had a situation a few years ago where we were putting a tetra on a goal (finals at the Philly regional), someone parked behind us, we backed up, they fell over and we were DQ'ed for tipping them!!!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Scott358

When you say "as soon as the blocking robot touchs the other robot"... assuming the blocking robot is simply parked, it would be the hurdling robot making the contact.

Maybe I should have said, "contacts while driving." The point is that if the hurdling robot simply cannot move backwards, due to there being a robot parked behind them, the parked robot is pinning unless the hurdling robot can move forwards. And, as I said before, some folks with arms may have already figured this strategy out and rendered it useless.

[Scott358]

Originally Posted by EricH

Maybe I should have said, "contacts while driving." The point is that if the hurdling robot simply cannot move backwards, due to there being a robot parked behind them, the parked robot is pinning unless the hurdling robot can move forwards. And, as I said before, some folks with arms may have already figured this strategy out and rendered it useless.

I agree if the blocking robot is pushing the other robot up against a field element and cannot move, that is pinning (as pinning implies the robot is pinned against something).

The way I see it is if the blocking robot is merely in the way of the other robot such that they cannot back up enough to lower their arm and drive forward, this would not be pinning (which I believe is confirmed per the GDC response).

In the end, it's not how you or I see it, but how the refs will call it (which can vary from regional to regional). As I stated earlier on, if anyone was to use this defensive strategy, I'd strongly suggest speaking to the head ref prior just to be sure.

As you stated, those with arms that extend over the overpass have hopefully figured this out already. We were concerned enough that we completely redesigned our arm/thrower in the last couple weeks prior to ship date!!!