Big Thanks to Everyone!

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Setsanto

I'm doubting the whole sweeping the contest thing! Also, a more serious point, our school has decided that the licenses of 3ds Max that Autodesk gave us should be used at computers at school for a Media Arts course, and the rest of our animation team and myself shouldn't have them at home. Is this common?

~Setsanto

You need to have a talk with your school administration. If in fact this is what the school decided it is nothing less than theft, pure and simple.

The license agreement is for the team and team members to use to develop animations for uses related to the team, on any computer available to them, including home computers.

The license agreement specifically prohibits installing the software for school instructional use. In order for the school to use Autodesk products they will have to execute a purchase agreement with Autodesk for any and all licenses they install, apart from any licenses that is used in robotics.

The administrations actions are potentially a serious breach of trust as it regards Autodesk and the FIRST community.

Please do what you can to correct this, or Autodesk will likely correct it for them.

[Kevin Thorp]

Originally Posted by ebarker

You need to have a talk with your school administration. If in fact this is what the school decided it is nothing less than theft, pure and simple.

When you talk to the school administrators I recommend being very diplomatic. I'm sure it's not their intent to "steal" the software or break Autodesk's terms of use contract. They probably think the Max licenses are standard educational-use.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Kevin342

When you talk to the school administrators I recommend being very diplomatic. I'm sure it's not their intent to "steal" the software or break Autodesk's terms of use contract. They probably think the Max licenses are standard educational-use.

Agreed !!
If the school paid the FIRST registration fees they may think they have a license to use so it will be necessary to explain how all that works.

[Kevin Thorp]

Maybe a compromise could be worked out that would stay within the license agreement?

Perhaps the school could sponsor a FIRST Robotics animation club in the afternoon and/or during the summer vacation. The main goal would be to learn 3ds Max skills in preparation for the 2008-2009 season.

[Mazin]

pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate, and when you're done doing that, pirate some more.


No, seriously, I am not happy with Autodesk's 3ds max, and what I perceive to be an overpriced, bloated piece of software that is very buggy and suffers from a lot of legacy cruft. Every year they release a new version of the software with broken file-format compatibility, and basically force feed it onto everybody using an older version.
They're starting to act like Microsoft. No. They've been acting like Microsoft. They give you the first hit free. Then, when you become dependent, they make you pay.

If you want to learn something, might as well learn Blender while you're at it. People whine and moan about the interface, but it's actually usable when you take the time to learn. Nobody learned Max in a day.

And Blender is free, as in freedom. You can install it on as many computers as you like. Files are forwards and backwards compatible, unlike Max's closed binary format. You don't have to worry about how many licenses you currently have. You don't have to worry about whether installing it on your home computer will use up the X number of licenses you have. You don't have to worry about being dependent on Max like an addict is on crack, and being forced to shell out money. There are no rules to follow on how you can and cannot use the software (besides the GPL, that is).

If you don't agree with my first paragraph, then consider switching. If you don't want to switch, keep pirating.

(Sorry for derailing the thread too far. I agree that Pete is a great help to everybody on the forums, and has continually blessed us with his expert advice. in b4 negs)

[Kevin Thorp]

Originally Posted by Mazin

If you don't want to switch, keep pirating.

Wow - that's the first time I've read a posting on Chief Delphi that encourages students to commit a crime (stealing software). Not exactly the "Gracious Professionalism" FIRST tries to promote.

Autodesk donates 5 one-year licenses of 3ds Max and 10 licenses of Inventor to over 1500 teams nationwide (now worldwide) and they sponsor these two exciting competitions. So they are evil because their software is bloated and their prices are too high?

Yes, the full commercial license of 3ds Max is pricey ($3500) but thousands of professional animators think it's worth the money. If you're a student you can buy it for less than $400 online at places like Studica. They even have a 14-month license for only $195.

Or there are plenty of other, less expensive alternatives - Blender, Gmax, Sketchup (all free), Truespace, Hash AnimationMaster, Poser, Carrara, Rhino, etc. Here's a pretty complete list: Link

If you don't like a company's product or price you can shop elsewhere. It's called the free market.

If you pirate software it's called a felony.

[Mazin]

Originally Posted by Kevin342

Wow - that's the first time I've read a posting on Chief Delphi that encourages students to commit a crime (stealing software). Not exactly the "Gracious Professionalism" FIRST tries to promote.
[...]
If you pirate software it's called a felony.

somebody bit. ok.

That's right. Pirating software is a felony. As a fine, upstanding community, we shouldn't be pirating software. However, there ends up being about three options for software like Max when you leave your comfortable world of educational licenses.

1. Pay for it. Max is about $3500 last I checked, with the (optional) annual subscription program an additional $500-600 (maybe? I don't remember what mine was...) a year. It can be a reasonable expenditure, depending on the business you do.
2. Violate the end-user license (some people like to refer to this as "pirating," "theft," "stealing," or any number of other amusing phrases).
3. Find an alternative.

Guess what is the most common approach? I'll give you hint (par. 1 of my previous post.)

Guess what I'd rather have you guys do? (it's not a hard guess to make.)

Meanwhile, here's sum delicious copypasta:
http://www.turbosquid.com/Forum/Inde...ThreadID/30224
(Andy Rak is a very respected senior member of TurboSquid.)
http://www.coniserver.net/ubbthreads...e/0#Post469119
(Worth bookmarking.)

[Ryo Chiba]

Sometimes it just isn't feasible to comply to this license system.

Sometimes it's the difference between a team spending a week to organize a license distribution method, or a day hand out installers and start working.

Sometimes it's the difference between lugging a desktop computer into a classroom and installing it within the school (to ensure that the licenses are not stolen), or carrying the program on a flash drive home. (I trashed my desktop's HD doing this my first year on the team)

Sometimes it's the difference between not learning the software at all, or learning it.

Sometimes it just isn't feasible to comply to this license system.

And sometimes(assuming that students aren't selling their work, or distributing their pirated program to a large business and cutting profits for the software company), noncompliance to the license system does no harm to the software company or students.

Kevin is right in that in our perfect society, we should strive not to disobey these laws written before us.
However, Mazin is also right that in our imperfect society, economics and logistics outweigh these laws in most circumstances (for students, anyway).

[Kevin Thorp]

There are a few handy (and legal) options to run 3ds Max on more tha 5 computers.

1. The "Portable License Utility" disables Max on one computer but enables it on another. Useful if you have Max running on your work/school computer but want to do some work at home (or vice-versa). You need admin rights to run the PLU.

2. You can install an older version of Max on as many computers as you want - for 30 days, then install a newer version for 30 more days. Assuming Autodesk releases Max 2009 next year and you have versions 8, 9 and 2008 you could install ver. 8 in mid-October and "upgrade" each month right up to the competition deadline in mid-February.

3. As I've wrote earlier, students can buy a 14-month license of Max 2008 for only $195. That's less than 50 cents per day.

[Setsanto]

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto

[BuddyB309]

Originally Posted by Setsanto

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto

Its $3500 for a commercial license for 3ds max, which your are good to make money off of it for the rest of your days. What autodesk gives FIRST is a student license and only good for a year. Which they sell for $145 for 14-month period.

You have to also think of it in economics terms from the company. Lets say you have two Kids.

Kid A is a small town highschool student that has a pirated copy of 3ds max and is using it for educational purposes. He makes small animations and puts them on the internet. He likes to surf the internet for tutorials so he can learn the program for next years competition. He works part time at a job so he has a little spending money.

Kid B also has a pirated copy of 3ds max, Kid B is getting calls from production companies contracting work out to him and is getting paid $1000 - $3000 each job. He is also making 3d animated shorts and posting them on his personal website that is gaining some popularity. He is now starting to sell T-shirts and is making a nice profit. He bought a new car with the money he has made off the copy of 3ds max.

If I was a company, I would be more interested in Kid B because if I take legal action against Kid B, I would be more likely to get the money to pay back the layers that I hired. The most I would do with Kid A would shoot him an email asking him if he would like to purchase a educational license of 3ds max 2008 for 50 cents a day so he could continue to pursue his educational goals.

I know we would all like to become Kid B someday, making animations and getting paid for it but I know most of you are not at that level. Most of you are Kid A's, Autodesk is not going to spend the time and money to prosecute all the millions of Kid A's running around. I don't even think it even crosses the minds of the employees. What they do care about are the Kid B's because kid B's are stealing $3500 from the company as oppose to $0.50 a day that the Kid A's are supposably taking.

I will repeat myself. When your pursuit is education, Let nothing stand in your way you will regret your choice in the future if you never take it.

[adamrw91]

Originally Posted by BuddyB309

When your pursuit is education, Let nothing stand in your way you will regret your choice in the future if you never take it.

I totally agree and if you aren't making money off of it then its not that bad. i dont se what is so wrong.

[Kevin Thorp]

BuddyB, where did you see the 14-month license for $145?

At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software.

[Mazin]

Originally Posted by Setsanto

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto

They are not donating $2 625 000 a year to FIRST. That is simply a ridiculous calculation.

I am not complaining about the amount of money involved. $3500 can seem like a small amount to some, while $150 can be too much for some. "At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software" is a bit silly. Look at how many teens spend a few thousand on a car. Meanwhile, I try not to spend money at all on "intellectual property."

Most of the questions here about this issue were about licenses. Who owns the licenses? Can I take them home? What about installing it on the computers in the shop? We don't have enough licenses to put on all the computers we use, what do we do? Is it OK if I use it for things besides FIRST? I don't remember anybody in this thread asking about an alternative to spending $X amount of money.

If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems. Say what you want about Blender's UI, but to me Max's UI is no better. Just more familiar.

Setsanto, your shop teacher is probably right, and that there's nothing to worry about from violating the license. But, on the other hand, you could learn Blender (or [insert free software name]) and not have to worry. Your choice, really.

[Kevin Thorp]

Why do some people think it's wrong to shoplift a candy bar but it's okay to pirate software? Both are illegal.

"Because everybody does it" or "you won't get caught" does not make it legal.

"I'm only using it to learn the software". That's why Autodesk has educational-use only licenses for 1/10 the price of their commercial licenses.

"Because I can't afford it" is not an excuse. If animation is your passion you can find a way to come up with $145 to buy a 1-year license of 3ds Max. Ask your parents, your grandparents, or robotics team leader. Get a minimum wage job for one week.

Many of you will go onto art college then pursue exciting careers creating video games, movies and other digital content. Your income will be derived from people who enjoy your product and are willing to pay for it. How would you feel if they decided not to pay for it, but steal it instead?

I know I sound preachy, and to be honest I was guilty of software piracy when I was younger. Then I learned about the law, and about programmers, animators, musicians and artists trying to make a living from their creative work.

In this digital age it's easy to steal intellectual property. But it's still wrong.

Before you post a message saying it's okay, please read this document: Software Piracy and the Law