Predictions: A cynical view of reality

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm.

I have yet to see a video of a shooter intentionally landing the ball on top of the overpass.

(Not that I happen to think it's all that important, but maybe it will turn out to be.)

[Aren_Hill]

One of the revisions for efficiency we've done on our bot was we got pickup rollers working direct drive off of globe motors, the range of places they could pick up from was amazing but once it grabbed it it took too long to come completely into the gripper, simple solution we took out a stage, now it works just as effictively just 5 times faster.

Robots that have been gone through and had every single function gone through for maximum speed will win, and maximum speed means no stopping when hurdling which throws most arms out the window.

Originally Posted by jgannon

I have yet to see a video of a shooter intentionally landing the ball on top of the overpass.

(Not that I happen to think it's all that important, but maybe it will turn out to be.)

A. 1726 does it consistently.
B. It won't make any difference.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by hallk

I disagree. I think it all comes down to how fast robots can pick up the trackballs. Yes, the shooter bots can hurdle faster but it seems like some of them take more time to get the ball into position then it does with an arm.

When i say "good shooter" i mean good in all aspects including ball acquisition, the performance of a robot depends on all systems functions at top notch performance which is what i intended to say for both the "good shooter" and "good arm"

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Well, normally I keep my opinions to myself, but I figure it would be fun to other's opinions on this.

Here's my prediction of the winning robot (winning being winning the most matches, and winning champs): We're going to see a low, small robot that can pick up the ball and throw it. It's going to be the simplest bot imaginable; a simple single or dual pneumatic (or other fast reloading mechanical) catapult, and a kitbot drive base. It's going to be FAST, both in robot max speed and driver to robot relations. It's going to have a very small, simple setup to knock down the ball, and the rest of the match will be spent hurdling the ball over the overpass, and running laps.

What we're NOT going to see: An enormous, beautifully engineered arm that can grab from any angle, pick the ball up, and get it over the pass. However wonderful these bots may be, they're just too shaky and too precise. We're not going to see an elevator, either. Any design that involves stopping, and lifting over will be weeded out before the finals on Einstein. We're going to see some of these huge arm-bots do very well, but in the end, it's going to be those low, fast throwers who will take champs.

Any thoughts on the winning bot design?

Yup. Thats it in a nut-shell. Although 118 certianly doesn't use a kit-bot frame

I might also add that the perfect design would use rollers/wheels to pick up the ball. Nothing beats rollers in terms of speed. Some of the before mentioned robots seem pretty fast at shooting... But lets see a video of them catching the ball again (with the exception of 1625)

Originally Posted by hallk

I disagree. I think it all comes down to how fast robots can pick up the trackballs. Yes, the shooter bots can hurdle faster but it seems like some of them take more time to get the ball into position then it does with an arm.

Look at 118. They're one of the fastest ball acquirers (sp) I've seen, shooter or lift.

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

Yup. Thats it in a nut-shell. Although 118 certianly doesn't use a kit-bot frame

I might also add that the perfect design would use rollers/wheels to pick up the ball. Nothing beats rollers in terms of speed.

Not to diss on 118, but I think their setup is too complex. This year is about speed, which means you're going to have some HARD collisions. Their turret seemed a bit wobbly in the videos they've posted, and I don't know if it can take a heavy hit.

Yeah, I agree with the rollers. However, some teams will have pneumatic or otherwise powered lifters, that can load very efficiently (faster than any arm I've seen out there).

[gurellia53]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

...Like? From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm. That is, get the ball over the overpass in a much more efficient manner, which will allow the alliance to keep moving, and to score higher.

THANKYOU

I've seen a lot of generalizations about launchers (and arm-bots) on CD, particularly this thread.

I agree that there will be launchers in the finals. I think there might be a few amazing arm bots, but for the most part, launchers will be the dominating design.

[T3_1565]

I agree with some of the ideas you posted but not some of the others

Speed is the most important thing this competition, but I don't think the fastest bot will win.

Shooters will have a really good chance, but I don't think three shooters will be the best alliance. Although they are well designed and speedy and simple, they will need the help of the taller more precise arm bots in a tight spot.

This is simply because a well designed arm bot will have a very hard time missing a hurdler, whereas a shooter could end up hitting other bots with the ball or be slightly off with aim, etc.

If a shooter can't get the ball off, then game over. Now I know most of them can, but some can't, and some can't consiently.

If a shooter can't get to his spot to shoot from, then he can't score, from what I see, they have a loose grip on the ball and can get stripped easier then arm bots, therefore, may have a harder time getting the ball to begin with.


I think the best alliance will be a shooter an arm bot and a racer. and TEAMWORK will win the matches. Arm bots getting the ball to the shooters, racers playing pick and letting the other bots get around the opposing team, arm bots place and picking off. Teamwork, Teamwork, Teamwork, will win this game, there is no way a single bot can do it alone this year.

Good Luck everyone!

[BHS_STopping]

Well, I certainly wouldn't call your views on the predicted strength of certain designs to be cynical, although I do understand where you're coming from.

My opinion is that the simplest design is the best. Sure, you could have a fast firing catapult design, but if it's complex and potentially unreliable, I would definitely favor a simpler, more robust arm/elevator design. I believe that in this year's game, each design will have its strengths and weaknesses, and I don't really see a need to downplay any strategy or approach other teams come up with. Remember, things can quickly change during the season, and more often than not, your viewpoint on the whole subject can change drastically!

I'm not going to make any predictions yet, but I will say that your points are well reasoned. However, if I had to venture a guess as to this year's winning alliance, I believe that all robots will be fast and maneuverable. Swerve drive, I've seen, has quite a tremendous advantage over other robots, in that it makes ball manipulation incredibly simple after a successful hurdle, as well as dodging other robots who may deliberately block you from getting your trackball back (trust me, as a driver, picking up the ball after launching it over can easily take up a significant amount of your match time if you don't have a decent picker-upper). Also, I do see an advantage in catapult designs, in that they're fast. However, I have noticed that after a ball is launched, it can react quite unpredictably and can take quite a long time to settle down afterwards.

I believe that a strong robot will be maneuverable, fast, and have a quick and reliable hurdling mechanism. Based purely on intuition, I would say that the winning alliance for this year's competition will consist of two strong, maneuverable shooters, along with a fast arm robot capable of running laps, recovering trackballs, and "defending" against opponents.

But who knows? I'm sure any FIRST veteran knows that one must expect the unexpected (our team knows that all too well, by the way ), I guess we'll just have to see how the rest of the season plays out!

[Aren_Hill]

One huge things i've noticed with all the videos people have been putting up, very few of these videos actually show the robot completing a hurdle reacquiring the ball and completing a hurdle. i know in ours at least theres video of almost 5 complete laps from hurdle to grab to hurdle to grab and so on. showing the systems efficieny


this thread is averaging a post per minute...

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Not to diss on 118, but I think their setup is too complex. This year is about speed, which means you're going to have some HARD collisions. Their turret seemed a bit wobbly in the videos they've posted, and I don't know if it can take a heavy hit.

Evidently that was their practice bot in the vid, and with 3 (maybe more) years of experience with turrets, I'm sure 118 knows how to make it secure.

Just saying this because I think that right now 118 has the best chance out of anyone to be nat'l champs.

[Alalea]

Our robot...can't hurdle *cringe* *cries* We're so screwed!

Originally Posted by Alalea

Our robot...can't hurdle *cringe* *cries* We're so screwed!

Doubt it. Like I said, I think the most successful alliances will have 1 great shooter and 2 great runners.

You have to remember theres 3 robots and 2 trackballs. Someone will be left without a ball.

[BHS_STopping]

And by the way, before I forget, a fast and effective ball-knocker-offer is also a valuable asset to any alliance! After watching some of the scrimmage videos, I noticed that it took quite a long time before all balls were on the track.

Perhaps that could play another key role this year?