Predictions: A cynical view of reality

[Alalea]

Originally Posted by Jaybee1405

Doubt it. Like I said, I think the most successful alliances will have 1 great shooter and 2 great runners.

You have to remember theres 3 robots and 2 trackballs. Someone will be left without a ball.

True...we have a very efficient method of knocking the ball of the shelf, so that's good

Originally Posted by T3_1565

I agree with some of the ideas you posted but not some of the others

Speed is the most important thing this competition, but I don't think the fastest bot will win.

Shooters will have a really good chance, but I don't think three shooters will be the best alliance. Although they are well designed and speedy and simple, they will need the help of the taller more precise arm bots in a tight spot.

This is simply because a well designed arm bot will have a very hard time missing a hurdler, whereas a shooter could end up hitting other bots with the ball or be slightly off with aim, etc.

If a shooter can't get the ball off, then game over. Now I know most of them can, but some can't, and some can't consiently.

If a shooter can't get to his spot to shoot from, then he can't score, from what I see, they have a loose grip on the ball and can get stripped easier then arm bots, therefore, may have a harder time getting the ball to begin with.

Huzzah for generalities! My opinion on the bot was VERY specific. Let me address these concerns, as I may not have been clear enough...

Speed IS the most important thing. When I say speed, I don't mean raw FPS, I mean cycle time, from gathering, to lapping, to hurdling. The teams that are able to do this fastest will win.

I believe I said something along the lines of the most practiced shooters being the ones to win. These low, fast bots that we'll see will rarely miss; in fact, they'll have the power of their shots dialed in so precisely, they'll be able to throw at just the right power to remove most possibility of the ball going out of play.

Again, in my original description, the winning bots are going to be able to knock the ball off with a simple mechanism (heck, a stick with a pneumatic attached can do this really well, why make anything more complex to do the same job?).

All of the shooter bots I've seen have a very strong grip on the ball.

Think of it from a drive perspective... You can either have around 10 functions, and have to worry about precise placement, or you can drive by at high speed, and hit the "bang" button to score. Much easier, right? So why do anything else?

One more thing... If the other alliance gets a ball up onto the overpass for the ending points, what's to stop an experienced shooter from hitting said ball with theirs, from below the overpass? It's all about practice, and being able to gather the ball FAST after shooting.

[Jetweb]

I'm not so sure that game play is going to be the deciding factor. In the regionals it will be what wins but once you get to nationals it always seems to come down to bonus points and the on field scores are usually almost the same on both alliances. This year that is Hybrid and finishing with the ball on the rack.

The fast hurdlers will be shut down by defense in some way or another.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Not to diss on 118, but I think their setup is too complex. This year is about speed, which means you're going to have some HARD collisions. Their turret seemed a bit wobbly in the videos they've posted, and I don't know if it can take a heavy hit.

Yeah, I agree with the rollers. However, some teams will have pneumatic or otherwise powered lifters, that can load very efficiently (faster than any arm I've seen out there).

They've been building those turrets since 2004. They know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

They've been building those turrets since 2004. They know what they're doing.

Yeah, forgot about that... They're probably going to get it tightened up, and then they're truly frightening.

[Lil' Lavery]

I have my reasons, that I'd rather not share publicly at this time, to say that, shooters will not dominate at all levels. Ultimately, at the championship level, it will require a well-oiled ALLIANCE (with shooters or arms, depending on the individual match-ups, alliance captains, and structures) to win Atlanta.
Ultimately each individual design aspect dictates certain aspects of play for each robot, and not to pick on the robots mentioned (which I do love their designs), they have some major flaws. 1629 cannot remove the ball from the overpass, which means that their alliance partners will have to do it for them, and in scenarios with only one other "hurdling" partner it may be entirely possible that that team has to do double the work, and invest double the time, removing balls. Additionally, compare this pick-up to that of a roller claw. There is a noticeable time difference, and namely, field element difference between the two (ie, niether 1625 nor 401 used the aid of the wall). This can be especially critical under real field conditions where teams will rarely get clean, unchallenged attempts to acquire the ball.
There are certain advantages to the position, height, geometry, and factors of hurdling with an arm/elevator that will become clear as the game evolves, especially in well thought-out machines. There are also disadvantages to the positions, heights, geometry, and factors of hurdling with a shooter.
That being said, I see many shooters being very competitive, but ultimately both designs will be very viable, and in the right alliances could win Atlanta very easily.

[Aren_Hill]

The only issue i can see with 1726 style catapults, and im naming that as a style of catapult not that team specifically. Is the pickup mechanism 2 forks that have to be timed and lifted at just the right time isn't the most efficient controlled way to do it.

we learned that lesson last year switching from an arm that had a claw that had to be closed by the operator when the tube was in to a roller design that touched the tube and we had it.

ALL FEAR BALLACUDA

[TheOtherGuy]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

The only issue i can see with 1726 style catapults, and im naming that as a style of catapult not that team specifically. Is the pickup mechanism 2 forks that have to be timed and lifted at just the right time isn't the most efficient controlled way to do it.

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I have my reasons, that I'd rather not share publicly at this time, to say that, shooters will not dominate at all levels. Ultimately, at the championship level, it will require a well-oiled ALLIANCE (with shooters or arms, depending on the individual match-ups, alliance captains, and structures) to win Atlanta.

Yeah, I agree that it takes a whole alliance to win, but my point lies elsewhere. Even though it's an alliance that wins, there is usually one robot who has the MOST wins, and the MOST points (ie, 25 in Aim High). I have a feeling that bot will be a low, fast shooter, and not a larger arm based system.

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Huzzah for generalities! My opinion on the bot was VERY specific. Let me address these concerns, as I may not have been clear enough...

Speed IS the most important thing. When I say speed, I don't mean raw FPS, I mean cycle time, from gathering, to lapping, to hurdling. The teams that are able to do this fastest will win.

I believe I said something along the lines of the most practiced shooters being the ones to win. These low, fast bots that we'll see will rarely miss; in fact, they'll have the power of their shots dialed in so precisely, they'll be able to throw at just the right power to remove most possibility of the ball going out of play.

Again, in my original description, the winning bots are going to be able to knock the ball off with a simple mechanism (heck, a stick with a pneumatic attached can do this really well, why make anything more complex to do the same job?).

All of the shooter bots I've seen have a very strong grip on the ball.

Think of it from a drive perspective... You can either have around 10 functions, and have to worry about precise placement, or you can drive by at high speed, and hit the "bang" button to score. Much easier, right? So why do anything else?

One more thing... If the other alliance gets a ball up onto the overpass for the ending points, what's to stop an experienced shooter from hitting said ball with theirs, from below the overpass? It's all about practice, and being able to gather the ball FAST after shooting.

You seem to misunderstand my points.

I have no problems with shooters, I will say they are the best bots in the competition, not taking anything away from them.

My point about speed was based upon the slowest bot on the field. Shooters can't shoot with a robot in the way, shooters can't keep running the track with a robot in the way. The fastest BALL will win. How the team moves the ball around the slower bots, around the traffic jams, around the flipped bots, is not something a shooter can do, and if it can then so be it, but from what I see, all shooters seem to have a very short gripper.

So if the shooter is slowed down by the other team, to the point of being as slow as an arm bot (I have seen some fast arms this year) then which has the better chance?

As I said, I don't think you can rely on 1 bot this year, and shooters try to get everything done on there own. (or so it seems on the videos) The lack of precision will not allow for ball passing across the middle to avoid a traffic jam in the far corner, will not allow for you to knock balls out of the other teams grippers, and other strategic moves.

As I said teamwork will win this year!

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

Now that is exactly what im talking about when i say streamlined for efficiency, exactly it.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Additionally, compare this pick-up to that of a roller claw. There is a noticeable time difference, and namely, field element difference between the two (ie, niether 1625 nor 401 used the aid of the wall). This can be especially critical under real field conditions where teams will rarely get clean, unchallenged attempts to acquire the ball.

While many shooters do struggle with a quick pickup, look at 118 (sorry to keep using them). Add one lateral piston and you have an even quicker pickup than a roller or claw.

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

Look at that backspin. Probably a sand wedge.

[TheOtherGuy]

Yea, I kinda exaggerated the backspin, and I also kinda suck at animating,,,

But you get the idea, at least...