Predictions: A cynical view of reality

[R.C.]

hey guys i understand that shooters are great.

But who gets the ball off, the arms or lifts.
Who puts it back on? launchers are built on the fact that someone takes the ball off for you. Giys check out 1323's bot and that arm can go up and down in 2 seconds (help of gas springs). It has wheels to suck it in. I think the arms are ideal this year, not to diss the launchers. Also the arms can do every function of this years game

-rc

[hillale]

Originally Posted by rc_cola1323

hey guys i understand that shooters are great.

But who gets the ball off, the arms or lifts.
Who puts it back on? launchers are built on the fact that someone takes the ball off for you. Giys check out 1323's bot and that arm can go up and down in 2 seconds (help of gas springs). It has wheels to suck it in. I think the arms are ideal this year, not to diss the launchers. Also the arms can do every function of this years game

-rc

Several arm robots this year have shown completely seperate mechanisms for ball removal when it comes to the rack. It goes without saying that shooters in general will have a more interesting time of replacing the ball upon the rack, if they decide to travel that road. However there will be some shooters that will be able to reliably place back on the rack for end game bonuses. I have enough faith in first teams to believe that. There is no reason why a shooter should be denied the thought of being able to complete every function of this years game.

[GUI]

You are assuming that everything has to be done by one mechanism. We can get the ball off and ready to launch very easily, and much quicker than 2 seconds. Arms can do every function of the game, but so can a well designed launcher.

[Optimizer]

Originally Posted by pafwl

I have read pretty much all of the post on this thread and I am impressed with many of the arguments

Just so you know where I am comming from our robot is a shooter. It however does not use pnematics to "shoot" "launch" the ball. Go to www.frc272.com and maybe you can figure out how we do it. Look under "We are LC" "2008 season". Anyway our robot also employes an alternate aparatus that can effectivelly remove the ball from the "monkey bars" "rack" whatever it is you call it.

However I am not at all saying this is the way to do it. We just like that fact that we can move on the fly and shoot. Also since we can remove the ball from the rack using an alternate aparatus we like it. Anyway

...

I had seen your video, and really look forward to seeing you folks @ FLR!

[TheOtherGuy]

Originally Posted by rc_cola1323

Also the arms can do every function of this years game
-rc

... and launchers can't?

I had posted something back a ways about 118 having a wobbly turret.... Scratch that. I've been corrected. After seeing what I just saw, 118 is the definition of what I think will win this year.

[Optimizer]

Originally Posted by ALIBI

I will have to disagree with your generalizations of a shooter. There will be shooters that can launch from at least half of their home zones using a variable launch angle. There will also be shooters that can launch over the center divider. Please explain why a shooter will have a more difficult time grabbing the trackball after a hurdle. In practice, after a shooter hurdles, the trackball typically ends up against or near the opposite wall where it is very easy to pick up. There will be shooters that can grab a trackball as fast as any armbot and at the same time have the trackball loaded for another hurdle. Granted, most shooters will not be able to place, however, there will be shooters that can remove the trackball very affectively. I do agree that Hybrid will eventually produce at least a third of an alliances points.

Didn't I throw enough "usually"s in there? OK, nobody really knows, do they?

Anyway, to answer your demand, I draw from your own assertions for an example. If you hurdle over the lane divider, then you would have to go half-way around the field to go collect it, wouldn't you? Don't expect it to still be waiting there for you, BTW.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

... and launchers can't?

Oh, but there are plenty more than three functions in this game...
I really feel that the bottom line is that neither shooters nor arms/lifts are better, they are both just different solutions with different advantages and disadvantages. Each will have distinct roles in alliances, and distinct alliances that compliment their abilities well. Each will have different defensive strategies to limit them.
Ultimately, each regional and each weekend will have different teams and different designs prosper. As the game-play evolves over the course of the season, different aspects will become more or less important. Ultimately we won't know the answer to this question until after the Championship event, if it ever gets truly settled.
If any one team has the ability to take over matches individually, it will be the team that best uses their strengths to play to attributes the game needs, while minimizing the weaknesses. That is, the team that harnessing the best strengths of needed designs, and cuts out as many of the flaws as possible. So far there have been three different teams who have posted online that I consider potential candidates to "take over this game", but it's highly unlikely that any of them will.

[dtengineering]

Well, this thread is certainly getting lots of action, isn't it.

First of all, it would be nice if 1726 and 118 did well at the Championships this year, as they have been real leaders in being open with their designs. They could have very easily chosen to not post their designs and results until ship date, but I think what they posted inspired a lot of teams to improve their own designs and did so with sufficient time left in build to make a difference. The fact that those two very effective designs are referenced so often is proof, I believe, of the inspiration they have provided other teams.

Secondly, there are a LOT of teams who we haven't seen ANYTHING from. 1114 is as quiet as a mouse (Or a chicken, as the case may be), and there are many other perennial favourites who may have come up with something... unexpected.... not to mention the annual crop of rookies and lesser known teams who will have some unique designs. With 1,500 teams, surely there is one that has thought outside the box and is reading this thread thinking "lifters, launchers... lifters, launchers... HA!" and keeping their mouths shut until regional time.

For instance, what if a robot unfolded an 80" long "shield", lifted it 8'-10' in the air, and planted itself firmly behind the opponents overpass, rolling side to side so that any hurdling attempt that hit it just bounced backwards and never made it over the line? All of a sudden the launchers aren't looking so good, are they? Neither are the lifters, for that matter...

Finally, I do get the feeling that this year's game levels the playing field somewhat between the "superstar" teams and the "grinders". In past years there have been some amazing robots that could win matches all by themselves, with minimal help from their partners, as evidenced by perfect 8-0 (or near perfect 7-1) records in qualifying. I think that is going to be much harder to do this year as the nature of the game may reduce (but not eliminate) the capability gap between the top tier robots and those of us who chase them.

So I'm going to suggest that the whole premise of the thread is just a bit off-kilter. The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Jason

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Well, this thread is certainly getting lots of action, isn't it.

First of all, it would be nice if 1726 and 118 did well at the Championships this year, as they have been real leaders in being open with their designs. They could have very easily chosen to not post their designs and results until ship date, but I think what they posted inspired a lot of teams to improve their own designs and did so with sufficient time left in build to make a difference. The fact that those two very effective designs are referenced so often is proof, I believe, of the inspiration they have provided other teams.

Secondly, there are a LOT of teams who we haven't seen ANYTHING from. 1114 is as quiet as a mouse (Or a chicken, as the case may be), and there are many other perennial favourites who may have come up with something... unexpected.... not to mention the annual crop of rookies and lesser known teams who will have some unique designs. With 1,500 teams, surely there is one that has thought outside the box and is reading this thread thinking "lifters, launchers... lifters, launchers... HA!" and keeping their mouths shut until regional time.

For instance, what if a robot unfolded an 80" long "shield", lifted it 8'-10' in the air, and planted itself firmly behind the opponents overpass, rolling side to side so that any hurdling attempt that hit it just bounced backwards and never made it over the line? All of a sudden the launchers aren't looking so good, are they? Neither are the lifters, for that matter...

Finally, I do get the feeling that this year's game levels the playing field somewhat between the "superstar" teams and the "grinders". In past years there have been some amazing robots that could win matches all by themselves, with minimal help from their partners, as evidenced by perfect 8-0 (or near perfect 7-1) records in qualifying. I think that is going to be much harder to do this year as the nature of the game may reduce (but not eliminate) the capability gap between the top tier robots and those of us who chase them.

So I'm going to suggest that the whole premise of the thread is just a bit off-kilter. The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Jason

Wow! Spoken like a true FIRST enthusiast.
The truth is we have nothing better to do right now because we are anxiously waiting for regionals to begin. Then, we can talk about week 1 and the strategies that took place.

[ALIBI]

Originally Posted by Optimizer

Didn't I throw enough "usually"s in there? OK, nobody really knows, do they?

Anyway, to answer your demand, I draw from your own assertions for an example. If you hurdle over the lane divider, then you would have to go half-way around the field to go collect it, wouldn't you? Don't expect it to still be waiting there for you, BTW.

Suppose we are all alone in the quadrant before our home zone and we are ready to hurdle. Sitting right in front of us with no one around is another trackball. Why not launch over the lane divider and quickly grab the other trackball? Suppose it is the last few seconds of the match and either we do not have the time to get back to our home zone, or there is a massive pileup preventing us from getting all the way around. Sounds like a good time to launch. My point is that if we chose to launch over the lane divider, we would probably not be concerned with getting the trackball back. I doubt if this will ever happen during a match except for the massive pileup possibility.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Finally, I do get the feeling that this year's game levels the playing field somewhat between the "superstar" teams and the "grinders". In past years there have been some amazing robots that could win matches all by themselves, with minimal help from their partners, as evidenced by perfect 8-0 (or near perfect 7-1) records in qualifying. I think that is going to be much harder to do this year as the nature of the game may reduce (but not eliminate) the capability gap between the top tier robots and those of us who chase them.

Very good points, Jason. In addition, with 3-team alliances retained, we have the "rising tide lifts all boats" effect in play again. A "grinder", a well-built and well executing but not particularly exciting bot, may benefit from good alliance partners in regional qualifying matches resulting in high placement in the standings. Sometimes that even happens to a "slogger", a robot with no particular abilities except to show up and play the game. The points those robots happen to score with their more "superstar" partners serves to put them into a position of being an alliance captain. (And if a "slogger" happens to be first seeded, it really makes the alliance selection interesting, as other picking teams have to decide whether to accept an invitation or form their own alliance.)

So I'm going to suggest that the whole premise of the thread is just a bit off-kilter. The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Jason

Emphasis mine - that's really the most important part of a successful alliance, isn't it?

[Rick]

You can have the fastest, lowest, best launcher in the game and still get out played with strategy. Smart alliance captains are most important in my opinion. They work with the resources they have to generate results.

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Oh, but there are plenty more than three functions in this game...
I really feel that the bottom line is that neither shooters nor arms/lifts are better, they are both just different solutions with different advantages and disadvantages. Each will have distinct roles in alliances, and distinct alliances that compliment their abilities well. Each will have different defensive strategies to limit them.

Thank you!!! This is what I have been trying to say! No single design will win everything this year (unlike the hybrids last year) and it will end up coming down to how well you can drive, and how well you work in an alliance. Stratagy will win for sure this year!

EDIT:

You can have the fastest, lowest, best launcher in the game and still get out played with strategy. Smart alliance captains are most important in my opinion. They work with the resources they have to generate results.

EXACTLY!

EDIT EDIT:

The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Now everyone is one the same page! Glad some people can put things into words wayy better than I can

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Oh, but there are plenty more than three functions in this game...
I really feel that the bottom line is that neither shooters nor arms/lifts are better, they are both just different solutions with different advantages and disadvantages.

I agree. Kevin was just pointing out to those folks who seem to think a shooter can't do anything but hurdle, that there are indeed shooters that can do everything needed to play the game. Being able to shoot doesn't prevent a robot from being able to knock the ball off, pick it up effectively, or place it.

6 robots, 4 balls, alliances made up of robots with quite different abilities and teams with widely varying levels of experience....it all adds up to an interesting and exciting game this year!