My comments on shooters

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Woody1458

This is exactly my point. Because so many teams went with this approach FIRST might sacrafice a decision they would make normally due to not wanting to DQ a lot of teams.

I doubt it. Though not everyone likes their decisions, or games, the GDC is a smart group of people. They knew in advance when they made this game that people would shoot/launch the ball if they didn't put in a rule preventing it, and they didn't put in such a rule. This tells us that if they didn't outright want teams to shoot the ball, they at least weren't opposed to the idea.

If teams have unsafe robots of any kind--shooter, arm bots, herders, etc, I'm sure they will be handled as best as possible during inspection for things like pinch points, unsafe release of energy, etc, and through penalties/yellow/red cards by referees during gameplay.

[Rick]

My comment/question is how many 'shooter' robots will fail inspection because they do not indicate they are 'loaded' like it said in the team update. The team update stated that teams need to have a visible warning as to when the device to launch a trackball was ready. It could be a flag or a light, just something to warn people. Some very interesting solutions will be thought up on Thursday's at regionals as I believe teams have overlooked this update.

I started a poll about launcher 'armed' indicators: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=65125

[ALIBI]

Everything is relative. A 145lb robot traveling at 18fps can do far more damage than any trackball that has been launched. 2007's arms coming up in the wrong place (you know what I mean) could easily cause intense pain. Airborn flags from years past became projectiles. Arms getting tubes over the alliance station walls aways got a little bit too close to players heads for my comfort level. My point is that you can always find something that is dangerous. It is how you deal with that danger that is important.

Most shooters will not find it necessary to arm themselves except while on the playing field or when testing with whatever necessary precautions are needed (i.e. not in the pits). All the kids on my team are well aware of the dangers when their robot is armed (we did several dry launches). What concerns me is what will happen when the match is over. While we plan to release any stored energy before the end of the match, I am sure that there will be times when we or other teams will not release. That means that people will be scrambling to get their robots off the field with an armed launcher waiting to attack. We drove the robot around knocking ito things, bumped the launcher itself etc etc. while it was loaded to make sure that it only fires when commanded and we were never successful in getting it to accidentally launch. While the kids on my team are trained in what to do/what not to do when the robot is armed, no one else is. The first thing we will do when approaching the robot is insert a foot long pin that prevents the robot from firing or if the conditions allow, manually release the energy.

To me, the most dangerous time is when people unfamiliar with our robot are going near it to get their own robot or resetting the field. Perhaps they should take ten seconds after a match is complete to get a thumbs up/thumbs down signal from the launchers on the field that either their robot is safe (thumbs up), go ahead and clear the field or they need to lock out the launcher (thumbs down). Or have a simple, do not go within five feet of a launcher after a match until the team is there and gives their OK.

[GaryVoshol]

Arms are not inherently safer than launchers. In Triple Play, a human player was hit in the head by another robot's arm while she was loading the robot. I don't recall whether the other team got a penalty or not. Sarah was on the ground, the match was continuing, and she had to scramble back to her touch-pad so the robot would run again.

[Dad1279]

There are only 4 balls in play. I would imagine that the refs(or spotters), probably 2 per side, could easily keep track of and stop or deflect the out of bounds balls.

[Qbranch]

If FIRST was really worried about flying trackballs (I think they should be too) then they should have put walls on both sides of the field as opposed to just the low fences.

I think some shooters may be more unsafe than others (huge spring tensions, etc.) but, overall, it's an important part of the game. Shooters can do something placers can't: hurdle while continuing forward motion, and forward motion is an integral part of this year's game.

Woody1458: Do you have a shooter on your robot?

-q

[ALIBI]

We would love to be able to add a pressure switch, second back up battery and a flashing red light, strob, LEDS, or whatever on a totaly independent circut to indicate when we are armed. The current rules do not allow us to do that. Even better would be if we were able to draw directly off the main battery (for teams with possible weight issues). By doing this, while the field is being reset, everyone will know we are armed. I can just see a well meaning field volunteer grabing the trackball off our robot and having it accidentally fire. Please read my previous post for a further explainatiuon of my concerns.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Qbranch

If FIRST was really worried about flying trackballs (I think they should be too) then they should have put walls on both sides of the field as opposed to just the low fences.

They did. From page 4 of "The Arena" manual:

Along the edge of the TRACK between the gates, a set
of additional rails extends upwards from the floor to approximately six feet high. These additional
rails are to help prevent TRACKBALLS from exiting the TRACK during game play.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

There are only 4 balls in play. I would imagine that the refs(or spotters), probably 2 per side, could easily keep track of and stop or deflect the out of bounds balls.

I tend to agree with this view, and I was under the impression that most of the sides of the field (read: except the gates) have a ~6' polycarb wall for ball containment... granted, we'll be launching balls ~7+' in the air.

I'm not too worried about throwing it over the opposing driver station... the physics makes it difficult to impart the kind of energy into the ball required to do that.

And while there are no physical lockouts built into our design (besides simply releasing the pressure from our pneumatics), the code has been written with several lockouts to prevent launching when our mechanism isn't in the proper position (read: we have a 'pickup' position, a 'carry/armed' position, and a 'just launched' position, and its the transition from carry->launch that imparts all of our force into the ball... and its all pneumatic. Although, unlike some of 1075's previous 'multi-position' pneumatic designs, like our 2007 arm, it's not a 'stop-anywhere' pneumatic setup.) It is impossible (read: the code doesn't allow it) for the robot to attempt to launch from the 'pickup' position.

[Sunshine]

The original comments are valid.

The flip side answer is for ALL teams to assume that ALL robots are armed when entering the playing field. I will assume that comment like this will be made at the drivers meeting. I know that this will be something my drivers will hear over and over again.

"While entering the playing field please assume that ALL robots are armed and loaded at all times".

[danshaffer]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

They did. From page 4 of "The Arena" manual:

still, if your shooter is designed to get the ball 6'6" high, it probably should be able to clear 6' walls... why not 10' walls? oh well, teams will probably have to work on their aim...

[=Martin=Taylor=]

You obviously haven't seen our elevator. It could kill a man...

Whenever you move heavy objects quickly things get dangerous. It doesn't matter if you are using an arm or a catapult.

[pakratt1991]

I agree with the dangers point, but i also believe that that GDC will not make a rule to screw over a large amount of teams.

Dad1279 There are only 4 balls in play. I would imagine that the refs(or spotters), probably 2 per side, could easily keep track of and stop or deflect the out of bounds balls.

I saw a picture of team 1501 ( I think ) hurlding a track ball and it made it about 5 feet over the overpass, that's about 12.5 feet from the center of the ball to the ground....
That could get pretty hard to block the balls if they head out of bounds.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

There are only 4 balls in play. I would imagine that the refs(or spotters), probably 2 per side, could easily keep track of and stop or deflect the out of bounds balls.

Probably the best idea is to have the field reset crew on duty for it.

Originally Posted by ALIBI

We would love to be able to add a pressure switch, second back up battery and a flashing red light, strob, LEDS, or whatever on a totaly independent circut to indicate when we are armed. The current rules do not allow us to do that. Even better would be if we were able to draw directly off the main battery (for teams with possible weight issues). By doing this, while the field is being reset, everyone will know we are armed. I can just see a well meaning field volunteer grabing the trackball off our robot and having it accidentally fire. Please read my previous post for a further explainatiuon of my concerns.

You probably will not pass inspection if this is the case. If the inspector sees a system on your bot that has no way to slowly release the tension/energy or a way to physcially make it impossible for the system to discharge (even then you never know) then you probably will not pass inspections. For spring catapults, it's been suggested that you have a lock bar that physically disallows the mechanism to release. For pneumatics, you simply would discharge the whole system via the valve. If it's a combo system, well you'll have to figure out something. I'm sure the field reset crew will learn to ask teams to get the balls off/out of their own robots instead of doing it themselves.

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

You obviously haven't seen our elevator. It could kill a man...

Whenever you move heavy objects quickly things get dangerous. It doesn't matter if you are using an arm or a catapult.

We call our elevator the guillotine! It takes 3.2 seconds to go up and 2.6 seconds to come down. With the support bars in the back that cross each other during the lift, it's pretty scary -- no one was allowed to stick their hands through at all during the build season.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

If team update #5 had not been published, I may see your point. But it was published and many safety measures were outlined, so I am not too worried about this issue.

A robot with an arm 9' in the air tipping over can cause just as much damage as a flying TrackBall.