Predictions: A cynical view of reality

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

The whole point of this thread was to not address the alliance factor (we all KNOW that it's an alliance that will win, why stress over it?), but in stead to address what kind of robot will lead the field (just as 25 did in 06) by taking the most wins, and being known as the most fearsome bot.

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

[Jonathan Norris]

I'm waiting till 71, 111, and 1114 battle it out at West Michigan in 3 days to form an opinion on what will be the dominant strategey. we've seen 111, but haven't seen how effective they are yet, and have yet to see 71 or 1114 in action. I think we will all be surprised by how the game plays out in two days... be patient the real game will be revealed on thursday when teams actualy get on the field and play.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

I wholeheartedly agree.

The robot design that will garner the most wins wont be the best shooter, the best arm, or the best runner ... it'll be the robot that can best adapt to how the game is being played at that regional and adapt to their alliance partners strengths and weaknesses.

[TheOtherGuy]

I think the point of this thread was to DISCUSS the different similarities/differences between arm-bots and shooters and to assert our collective OPINIONS on the subject. How the alliance works is completely arbitrary to the conversation. This thread is merely for SPECULATING over which design would be more dominant over the other.

C'mon, this thread is for fun, as noted by the number of pages in 1 day. Arguments/Debates are fun, interesting, and engaging. We all know we will see how it plays out on the first day of competition, so stop mentioning that. Just post your ideas on why you think shooters (as mentioned in the initial post) are better or worse than arm-bots. There have already been some interesting posts on the subject, so try as hard as possible not to deviate from that discussion.

Now, my opinion is that shooters will have a clear advantage.

-low CG (I haven't seen a tall/tippy shooter yet...)
-shoot on the fly (some elevators can do this, but none that I've seen also load from the front)
-almost no chance of exceeding the 80" rule (not a big issue, just a minor point that hasn't been made yet, that I know of)

the main point here is the shoot on the fly. You save ~5 seconds or more (depending on the design, I know 179 can hurdle fast with their arm) on that fact alone. Shooters also (some of them) can knock off and catch the ball very, very quickly. I haven't seen an arm robot do this yet. NEW IDEA: Shooters can place the ball faster than arm robots. I say this because arm robots (most of them) take some time to raise the arm and actually place the ball. Shooters simply move the the right spot on the field and shoot. From our experiments, you don't have to be very accurate to get the ball on the overpass...

Just throwing some ideas out there for discussion...

EDIT: and what Craig Hickman said earlier about robots taking the most wins, I believe he meant which robot would make the most points.

[waialua359]

[quote=TheOtherGuy;707951]NEW IDEA: Shooters can place the ball faster than arm robots. I say this because arm robots (most of them) take some time to raise the arm and actually place the ball. Shooters simply move the the right spot on the field and shoot. From our experiments, you don't have to be very accurate to get the ball on the overpass...

QUOTE]

I think this statement may be too generalized. Not all shooters can shoot it on the overpass. Some are designed to shoot "over" the overpass only, where it may be difficult for teams to move backwards a bit and try to make it land perfectly on there. I'm not talking about every shooter.
Moving to the right spot may be hard to do with other robots on the field.

Arm robots wouldnt drive up to an overpass, then start lifting their arm to place on the overpass, thus taking too much time. They can do it while moving towards the overpass on the fly which is a smarter play in saving time. The one guarantee I think is that a greater no. of arm bots can place it on the overpass better and with great efficiency (not necessarily faster), while not as many shooters can pick a spot and place it just right on the overpass. I'm sure many experienced controllers and certain robots may do this, but not some of the ones I have seen from others. If an arm bot can place the ball on the overpass, I am assuming that they can remove it also (generalizing here). I have not seen every shooter built to do this. A great shooter will have that capability to knock balls down.

[Uberbots]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

...Like? From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm. That is, get the ball over the overpass in a much more efficient manner, which will allow the alliance to keep moving, and to score higher.

Yeah, until it overshoots, hits the bottom of the overpass, backfires and breaks the launcher mechanism (as happened to one of the teams at suffield)

[StephLee]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

1629 cannot remove the ball from the overpass...

I'm going to stay out of the rest of the discussion for now, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5d34yZrSH0

Now, the ball does not consistently stay on the overpass, but it consistently knocks another ball down. Provided that another ball has been removed, we ARE capable of removing one ourselves. If no ball is removed...well, then the training wheels come off.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

EH GAD!! Team 39 can catch a bouncing trackball! (It happens during the end of the video, and yes I know it doesn't bounce off the ground.... But it was cool none the less!!!)

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by StephLee

I'm going to stay out of the rest of the discussion for now, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5d34yZrSH0

Now, the ball does not consistently stay on the overpass, but it consistently knocks another ball down. Provided that another ball has been removed, we ARE capable of removing one ourselves. If no ball is removed...well, then the training wheels come off.

I'm sorry for the misinterpretation, but I meant at the beginning of the match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKdTJSR-KuU

Originally Posted by Video Description

1629 Robot features: Trackball pickup, fast speed, super-low center of gravity, amazing hurdle, multiple auto-laps, rugged, place ball at end (if we're lucky) but no ball knock-er- off-er. (less)

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

This is a whole new debate that cannot be proven yet, we have no idea if a 1 bot win is possible yet.
While yes from analyzing the game it seems like it "has" to be a whole alliance effort every single match to win. I think that there will be some bots that will be unstoppable during qualifications randomly paired matches, and then they will truly be tested by the alliances they end up with and against.

you can't state one bot can't dominate yet...

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

This is a whole new debate that cannot be proven yet, we have no idea if a 1 bot win is possible yet.
While yes from analyzing the game it seems like it "has" to be a whole alliance effort every single match to win. I think that there will be some bots that will be unstoppable during qualifications randomly paired matches, and then they will truly be tested by the alliances they end up with and against.

you can't state one bot can't dominate yet...

this depends on 2 conditions as seen in the past.
The dominating robot has no defense played on them and the opposing alliance just cant play offense. The fact that only 2 trackballs are available per alliance AND they have to go around the field to hurdle again, impedes a dominating robot to score as much as they can.
What makes it harder to dominate which is evident from 2007 to now is the fact that you can only carry one gamepiece at a time (so to speak). In 06, you could load up and shoot as much as you wanted. Dominating robots could kill you by scoring in the center goal for Aim High in a matter of seconds. Team 25 won many matches in stretches of just 10 seconds or less. We had lots of experience. We played against them 5 times and saw many more of their matches both at regionals and at championship. No team can win this year in a stretch of 10 seconds or less during a match, UNLESS maybe during the hybrid period.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

What about autonomous? Let's say Team 9999 can get a lap reliably. Starting down 16 points is a HHHUUUUGGGEEEEE gap to fill. Like, huge huge. Even if they just have 3 robots driving in circles, and you have 3 somewhat decent hurdlers, it could very well be an insurmountable gap! If they are also a good hurdler, I think that's pretty hard to touch.

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy

EDIT: and what Craig Hickman said earlier about robots taking the most wins, I believe he meant which robot would make the most points.

Hm. Actually, by saying which robot would take the most wins, I actually meant, y'know, the most wins. If I had meant the high scoring robot, I probably would have said it... then again, knowing me, nothings certain.

Originally Posted by Uberbots

Yeah, until it overshoots, hits the bottom of the overpass, backfires and breaks the launcher mechanism (as happened to one of the teams at suffield)

This is a valid point, and all, but it's quite contrary to my original post. My prediction states that it will be a very practiced team, who will learn to make very few mistakes. Sure, a fluke mistake will happen every now and then, but the bots we're going to see rise to the top of the heap won't make them.

[StephLee]

Originally Posted by Uberbots

Yeah, until it overshoots, hits the bottom of the overpass, backfires and breaks the launcher mechanism (as happened to one of the teams at suffield)

We had that happen once in practice, but due to the way our shooter was built, it did far more damage to the trackball than to us...the bladder of the ball ended up in two pieces, while the robot was fine. Robust construction is obviously important in any game, especially one involving high speeds and potentially flying objects weighing 8 to 10 pounds.

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

It's like coming into a burger store and shouting "I LIKE CHICKEN MORE!" and leaving.

That's now what this thread is about. Yes alliances are important but can an arm or shooter be the most adaptive to the game and alliances? What we are looking at is the fact that arms are slower, more ridged, and antiquated compared to shooters in this game. Putting a ball on the overpass is going to be a task that is downplayed this year, just like stacking in 2003. It's a complex task that requires too much effort, and can be taken away very quickly.

NOW, I'm not saying that an ALLIANCE full of shooters is the best way to go (that's another topic for another time/thread/talking over a beer), but for this game I see shooters being a more dominant force than arms.