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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-02-2008, 22:57
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Sometimes it just isn't feasible to comply to this license system.

Sometimes it's the difference between a team spending a week to organize a license distribution method, or a day hand out installers and start working.

Sometimes it's the difference between lugging a desktop computer into a classroom and installing it within the school (to ensure that the licenses are not stolen), or carrying the program on a flash drive home. (I trashed my desktop's HD doing this my first year on the team)

Sometimes it's the difference between not learning the software at all, or learning it.

Sometimes it just isn't feasible to comply to this license system.

And sometimes(assuming that students aren't selling their work, or distributing their pirated program to a large business and cutting profits for the software company), noncompliance to the license system does no harm to the software company or students.

Kevin is right in that in our perfect society, we should strive not to disobey these laws written before us.
However, Mazin is also right that in our imperfect society, economics and logistics outweigh these laws in most circumstances (for students, anyway).
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Unread 27-02-2008, 18:28
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

There are a few handy (and legal) options to run 3ds Max on more tha 5 computers.

1. The "Portable License Utility" disables Max on one computer but enables it on another. Useful if you have Max running on your work/school computer but want to do some work at home (or vice-versa). You need admin rights to run the PLU.

2. You can install an older version of Max on as many computers as you want - for 30 days, then install a newer version for 30 more days. Assuming Autodesk releases Max 2009 next year and you have versions 8, 9 and 2008 you could install ver. 8 in mid-October and "upgrade" each month right up to the competition deadline in mid-February.

3. As I've wrote earlier, students can buy a 14-month license of Max 2008 for only $195. That's less than 50 cents per day.
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Unread 27-02-2008, 22:01
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto
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  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-02-2008, 23:41
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Setsanto View Post
Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto
Its $3500 for a commercial license for 3ds max, which your are good to make money off of it for the rest of your days. What autodesk gives FIRST is a student license and only good for a year. Which they sell for $145 for 14-month period.

You have to also think of it in economics terms from the company. Lets say you have two Kids.

Kid A is a small town highschool student that has a pirated copy of 3ds max and is using it for educational purposes. He makes small animations and puts them on the internet. He likes to surf the internet for tutorials so he can learn the program for next years competition. He works part time at a job so he has a little spending money.

Kid B also has a pirated copy of 3ds max, Kid B is getting calls from production companies contracting work out to him and is getting paid $1000 - $3000 each job. He is also making 3d animated shorts and posting them on his personal website that is gaining some popularity. He is now starting to sell T-shirts and is making a nice profit. He bought a new car with the money he has made off the copy of 3ds max.

If I was a company, I would be more interested in Kid B because if I take legal action against Kid B, I would be more likely to get the money to pay back the layers that I hired. The most I would do with Kid A would shoot him an email asking him if he would like to purchase a educational license of 3ds max 2008 for 50 cents a day so he could continue to pursue his educational goals.

I know we would all like to become Kid B someday, making animations and getting paid for it but I know most of you are not at that level. Most of you are Kid A's, Autodesk is not going to spend the time and money to prosecute all the millions of Kid A's running around. I don't even think it even crosses the minds of the employees. What they do care about are the Kid B's because kid B's are stealing $3500 from the company as oppose to $0.50 a day that the Kid A's are supposably taking.

I will repeat myself. When your pursuit is education, Let nothing stand in your way you will regret your choice in the future if you never take it.
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Unread 28-02-2008, 09:28
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

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Originally Posted by BuddyB309 View Post
When your pursuit is education, Let nothing stand in your way you will regret your choice in the future if you never take it.
I totally agree and if you aren't making money off of it then its not that bad. i dont se what is so wrong.
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Unread 28-02-2008, 09:44
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

BuddyB, where did you see the 14-month license for $145?

At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software.
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Unread 28-02-2008, 17:51
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Setsanto View Post
Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto
They are not donating $2 625 000 a year to FIRST. That is simply a ridiculous calculation.

I am not complaining about the amount of money involved. $3500 can seem like a small amount to some, while $150 can be too much for some. "At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software" is a bit silly. Look at how many teens spend a few thousand on a car. Meanwhile, I try not to spend money at all on "intellectual property."

Most of the questions here about this issue were about licenses. Who owns the licenses? Can I take them home? What about installing it on the computers in the shop? We don't have enough licenses to put on all the computers we use, what do we do? Is it OK if I use it for things besides FIRST? I don't remember anybody in this thread asking about an alternative to spending $X amount of money.

If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems. Say what you want about Blender's UI, but to me Max's UI is no better. Just more familiar.

Setsanto, your shop teacher is probably right, and that there's nothing to worry about from violating the license. But, on the other hand, you could learn Blender (or [insert free software name]) and not have to worry. Your choice, really.

Last edited by Mazin : 28-02-2008 at 18:13.
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Unread 28-02-2008, 19:10
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Why do some people think it's wrong to shoplift a candy bar but it's okay to pirate software? Both are illegal.

"Because everybody does it" or "you won't get caught" does not make it legal.

"I'm only using it to learn the software". That's why Autodesk has educational-use only licenses for 1/10 the price of their commercial licenses.

"Because I can't afford it" is not an excuse. If animation is your passion you can find a way to come up with $145 to buy a 1-year license of 3ds Max. Ask your parents, your grandparents, or robotics team leader. Get a minimum wage job for one week.

Many of you will go onto art college then pursue exciting careers creating video games, movies and other digital content. Your income will be derived from people who enjoy your product and are willing to pay for it. How would you feel if they decided not to pay for it, but steal it instead?

I know I sound preachy, and to be honest I was guilty of software piracy when I was younger. Then I learned about the law, and about programmers, animators, musicians and artists trying to make a living from their creative work.

In this digital age it's easy to steal intellectual property. But it's still wrong.

Before you post a message saying it's okay, please read this document: Software Piracy and the Law
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Unread 28-02-2008, 20:04
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Just to clarify:

Each team is given 5 one-year licenses of 3ds Max. If you want to keep building your skills to prepare for the 2009 competition I recommend talking to your team leader about taking a license home. This is perfectly legal.
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Unread 28-02-2008, 21:58
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazin View Post
If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems.
You are not stuck with commercial software. No one is forcing you to use it. you are quite welcome to use your own intellect to create your own property that you can give away to the world.

You can start from scratch, or join a group of maintainers of some open source produce that you can then make better than anyone else's on the planet.

People do it all the time. Software isn't like oil or minerals. You don't dig it out of a mine. There is no cartel. It is purely the product of someones talents.

It is really quite that simple !!!

In the real world $ 3,500 is nothing compared to the cost of paying a commercial user of that software to work all year, plus their health plan and everything else.

In the real world, Autodesk has graciously allowed FIRST students to use their software for free so that the student can learn something. They don't even have to buy the educational version.

I am very curious how many FIRST teams can make effective use of more than 5 copies of 3dsmax. Most teams can barely use one copy.

If a team has that much animation work going on then the school should have a full up class on the subject and build and equip a lab to teach the course. And buy the equipment and software to get that done...

my $ 0.02
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Unread 28-02-2008, 22:07
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Maybe some schools lock up the software for "safe keeping" during the off-season.

Unfortunately that means the kids who really want to learn more about Max can't use it.
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Unread 28-02-2008, 22:27
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin342 View Post
Maybe some schools lock up the software for "safe keeping" during the off-season.
That would be really unfortunate. To me and I think this is Autodesk's intent is for the mentors/leaders to make an accurate assessment of who is interested and needs the software.

That leader grants permission to the Autodesk site for that student to download and install that software. It is that simple.

I grant access rights to students, not the school. They can put it on a computer in their bedroom and stay up all night working with it for all I care. If they lose interest the license can be transferred to another student.

The school has no interest in this matter at all. They have other matters of much more importance, like educating students, not jumping in the way of what FIRST and Autodesk intended.

The school should lock up their software. This is NOT their software but a right to use license granted to the team and it's students. Very different.

It isn't a complicated concept.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 17:29
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

I hate being lawful good sometimes (D&D Reference), but you should look through your options, I have a friend who screamed at me when I told him he had to use 3Ds MAX instead of sketch up to make our animation. Sketch up is free and basically the same as max, I suggest you ask the administration to use that instead. Further more let me congratulate you on having a school that will even make an animation class in times that press schools so hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin342 View Post
Why do some people think it's wrong to shoplift a candy bar but it's okay to pirate software? Both are illegal.
Software Piracy and the Law
You already know I'm not for pirating 3DS MAX, but I love philosophy and I think the argument is over tangible vs. intangible. If you take a candy bar, you keep someone else from eating it who did some work for it. If you pirate software you would otherwise be unable to afford, the company doesn't lose money because you would never have been able to afford a license, and your not stopping anyone else from using that software. What's more it's for educational purposes of teaching students, which in many cases will just increase the number of people wanting and capable of using the software which might actually help the company, though granted a lot of them might pirate as well. Money is lost mainly through other businesses that should buy the software, but don't. I don't follow laws because they are laws, I follow laws because they are good for society and maintain trust.

For all additional references, even if you don't agree and think pirating is fine, please don't post it on a forum with lots of people well connected to the software with the ability to both notify the company and competition you are using it to enter... it's just not a good idea.
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Unread 03-03-2008, 09:00
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

You can argue philosophy all you want, but it's still just rationalizing theft.

Assuming you can't get your team leader to give you one of the 5 3ds Max licenses, who on this forum cannot afford the $10-14 a month it costs to buy a 14-month license?
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Unread 03-03-2008, 22:10
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Re: Big Thanks to Everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazin View Post
They are not donating $2 625 000 a year to FIRST. That is simply a ridiculous calculation.

I am not complaining about the amount of money involved. $3500 can seem like a small amount to some, while $150 can be too much for some. "At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software" is a bit silly. Look at how many teens spend a few thousand on a car. Meanwhile, I try not to spend money at all on "intellectual property."

Most of the questions here about this issue were about licenses. Who owns the licenses? Can I take them home? What about installing it on the computers in the shop? We don't have enough licenses to put on all the computers we use, what do we do? Is it OK if I use it for things besides FIRST? I don't remember anybody in this thread asking about an alternative to spending $X amount of money.

If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems. Say what you want about Blender's UI, but to me Max's UI is no better. Just more familiar.

Setsanto, your shop teacher is probably right, and that there's nothing to worry about from violating the license. But, on the other hand, you could learn Blender (or [insert free software name]) and not have to worry. Your choice, really.
Chances are they wouldn't have gotten caught until they posted here, in which case Autodesk probably still doesn't care enough, and if they do they are only going to subpoena ChiefDelphi for the IP addresses of the posts in this topic and go after the school and cutting off licenses or filing a lawsuit [option b is very very unlikely but greedy companies do not see it as a "return in their investment down the road"].

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireball3004 View Post
You already know I'm not for pirating 3DS MAX, but I love philosophy and I think the argument is over tangible vs. intangible. If you take a candy bar, you keep someone else from eating it who did some work for it. If you pirate software you would otherwise be unable to afford, the company doesn't lose money because you would never have been able to afford a license, and your not stopping anyone else from using that software. What's more it's for educational purposes of teaching students, which in many cases will just increase the number of people wanting and capable of using the software which might actually help the company, though granted a lot of them might pirate as well. Money is lost mainly through other businesses that should buy the software, but don't. I don't follow laws because they are laws, I follow laws because they are good for society and maintain trust.

For all additional references, even if you don't agree and think pirating is fine, please don't post it on a forum with lots of people well connected to the software with the ability to both notify the company and competition you are using it to enter... it's just not a good idea.
Companies, if they were serious about customers, would breed the young ones and corrupt them to use their software. What I mean by that is that they would give FREE FULL versions or even EDU versions to individuals, etc. and just have the "You can't make profit from your animations" deal as one of the few TOS. What this will do, is give EVERYONE access to the software. Than when people want to make animations [for profit] they would purchase this software for the wallet killing price it currently is [if it doesn't grow].

So by this time the people that use program X are brainwashed and are experts so that when they hop from company A to B they can [provided they are a beast at what they do] get the company to switch or buy a few licenses of program X so that work gets done faster for said person.


-morpheous




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