Rule G22 needs to be changed

[Ross340]

I totally agree. It leaves arm robots at a loss. If they're required to cross to hurdle. I've seen a bunch of this.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Ross340

I totally agree. It leaves arm robots at a loss. If they're required to cross to hurdle. I've seen a bunch of this.

??

The initial crossing is already as written in Dave's suggested modification.An arm bot crossing the finish line to hurdle (having an appendage behind the overpass to hurdle I would assume) should be able to back up into the quadrant they were just in without penalty.

[Mike o.]

Robots do not get penalized until they have FULLY CROSSED the line, meaning that every part of the robot is in the new quadrant, and then their robot crosses/breaks the plane of the line in the clockwise direction. I think that the rule is pretty good the way it is set up. I do believe that teams should start to think outside the box when it comes to encountering traffic jams, meaning that if a robot is sitting there and not moving, and you can't move cause if you back up or the only way you can move will cause you to incur a penalty, then bump the robot to pass. If the robot doesn't move in the 6s grace period, they will get penalized. And if they continue to do this, they will according to G41 get a yellow card or probably penalized more.

just my 2cents

[Justin Montois]

They've made Rule changes after week 1 before. Dave....

[Paul Copioli]

Dave,

I have to disagree with you on this one. It is a rule like any other. The rule was clear from the start. Either don't fully cross the line, or once you cross it, then keep going.
BTW, one of our losses today was due to a partner getting this penalty. If the rule was changed to fully crossing back, then teams would violate that rule too.

-Paul

[Uberbots]

Its not one of the rules thats meant to spoil the fun, its an element of the game designed to make it harder. with this rule in place, the game becomes more challenging.

[Tapoore]

I believe that removing the penalty attached to this rule would be too much of a change in gameplay. Maybe a better amendment would be to make it 5 points? 2 points?

I will admit though, the rule is really quite annoying- we lost a couple of matches due to alliance partners getting penalized.

[Jazonk]

I think you are completely right, the penalty is too high.

[Jimmy Cao]

I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, it's not too hard to avoid if you know what you're doing. Nonetheless, having a team get blasted 50 points in a match (I saw this once on the webcast) because someone crossed the line is also excessive. It's not like they gained 50 pts of unfair advantages by doing so...

Especially in autonomous mode, i think it's excessive. It should also be limited to when the team has anything to gain in teleoperated mode.

[Tim Delles]

Hrmmm,

I have to say i find this rule to be fine. Like Paul said it has been known from the beginning. What I don't like though is the penalty for this in Autonomous Mode.

Auto Mode is hard enough for most teams, but now it feels like they are saying that if you try it and you screw up you are going to get a penalty. This does not seem fair, especially to teams who's strong point isn't programming.

Just my 2 cents

[GaryVoshol]

I agree with Paul, the rule has been there from the beginning. And if you change it to say a robot can't fully cross back over the line, then all you've done is move the line.

[AdamHeard]

Yes, the rules has been there from the beginning.... but it is seriously putting a damper on gameplay.

His suggestion to change it doesn't really affect the intent of the rule at all, and will allow robots more maneuvering options leading to higher scoring and more exciting matches. Traffic will still flow counterclockwise, and matches will be better.

I doubt the GDC ever wants to design a game where penalties determine matches (I'm not saying they did, don't flame).

[TubaMorg]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

And if you change it to say a robot can't fully cross back over the line, then all you've done is move the line.

Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by TubaMorg

Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.

I doubt it, and your logic is highly circular.

You're saying no matter what teams are going to get penalties, because that's just the way it is. I saw way too many experienced teams who most certainly know better, and certainly were trying not to go "backwards" who got put into a place where they received penalties that could have been avoided under Dave's proposal.

This is not like the tether reversal of 2002. It's not going to trivialize everyone's work and give half the teams an unfair advantage. It's simply going to make gameplay more dynamic and exciting. It will still penalize teams attempting to impede the flow of traffic, and allow teams who get stuck or need to manuever around someone a small amount of leeway.

Yes we knew about the rule from the start. But that doesn't mean that as written it's the best possible solution. Rules that prove to not be practical or effective ought to be changed or removed.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by TubaMorg

Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.

Obviously we have no way of knowing without actually changing the rule, but I disagree with this. In the current state you get a penalty for going even an inch across the line. I will be honest, I have never driven a FIRST robot in a competition and I was only on the drive team for one match (I was sick as a dog and after one practice match decided that being on the drive team was not helping anything), however I have a very strong feeling that for most drivers, seeing exactly where their robot is with respect to that line and making sure the corner of their bumper does not cross it when maneuvering around traffic on the far side of the field with the lane divider in the way is probably very difficult. I think giving them two to three feet of wiggle room would definitely result in less penalties than we are seeing so far.

Also, I wanted to address something that has not yet popped up, but I know will in this thread sooner or later. I know that someone is going to come in and say that it is the first day of week 1 regionals and that drivers will get better as the weeks go by. Well, according to this, for 75% of teams, things won't get any better. There drivers will not have any more practice than the drivers we are seeing rack up the penalty points.