Rule G22 needs to be changed

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by waialua359

I can see shooter/catapult bots having an easy time meeting the rule.

Yeah, I don't see what the problem is....

[jason_zielke]

I completely agree with you Dave. I think your suggestion is a good solution to the problem.

At the very least, there needs to be some limit to the penalty such as disabiling the robot if they violate this rule more than X number of times in a match.

The excitement of the students and the fans goes down significantly when a team loses because a robot on the alliance causes 50 points in penalties after the others alliance mebers scored 40 points to win the game. It makes qualification matches much more about getting with teams that just don't mess up.

To comment on a few of the other opinions expressed, the idea that you need to "plan" better about crossing the line is really not fair since all the other robots in the quadrant have the ability to backup into you, thus giving you no place to go. Though this could be a good form of defense, I do not think it is the intent of the rule FIRST was hoping to achieve. They need to allow a team to not be trapped in a part of the field because another robot backs up to block them. I would assume that a referre would call this impeding traffic according to the rules, but I have not seen this happen and doubt it would because it is not very obvious in game play.

I hope that after the first week of competition, the game design committee will consider changing this rule to really allow this game to be exciting like they (and all the rest of us) had hoped for.

[TubaMorg]

I totally disagree with the change the rule opinion. As others have pointed out, this rule has been in the books since day 1. I watched a good number of matches and didn't notice any line violations that couldn't be avoided. Now if the robot is hard to control, that is another issue and not the fault of G22. I saw robots going after balls they shouldn't have gone after and cross the line. Even if it's just a little it's a penalty. I saw bad judgment when crossing the line, leaving a robot without a way around a jam without backing up. Logic should tell you that if you cross the line CCW into a trap that requires a CW path to escape, then the original path was not a good choice. Regardless, bumping to pass when there is no path is also an available option, though it may be difficult to wait. If an alliance scores 40 points by breaking the rule 5 times, then how do you know how many points they would have scored by following the rules? Drive CCW and keep driving CCW. It's that simple. Don't chase after balls in the wrong direction, don't drive yourself into bottlenecks. If you choose to flirt with the line and get called for it, then take it as a learning experience and don't do it any more. If you can't control your robot well enough to avoid driving in the wrong direction, then get it fixed.

[Dan Petrovic]

Right. The rule isn't that ridiculous. We've known that rule is there and we know what it means.

It's not really hard to avoid, either. If a trackball is near a line you just previously crossed, leave it alone.

I'm not really saying that it shouldn't be changed. I just wouldn't mind if it stayed as it is or if it went.

[acetech-st]

Our Alliance scored 48 and had 50 points in penalties. We lost a match 0-6.

We're still not clear on where or when the penalties were assessed.

It would be nice to know how this is being called so we could try and prevent it from happening

[Jimmy Cao]

I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, it's not too hard to avoid if you know what you're doing. Nonetheless, having a team get blasted 50 points in a match (I saw this once on the webcast) because someone crossed the line is also excessive. It's not like they gained 50 pts of unfair advantages by doing so...

Especially in autonomous mode, i think it's excessive. It should also be limited to when the team has anything to gain in teleoperated mode.

[Tim Delles]

Hrmmm,

I have to say i find this rule to be fine. Like Paul said it has been known from the beginning. What I don't like though is the penalty for this in Autonomous Mode.

Auto Mode is hard enough for most teams, but now it feels like they are saying that if you try it and you screw up you are going to get a penalty. This does not seem fair, especially to teams who's strong point isn't programming.

Just my 2 cents

[GaryVoshol]

I agree with Paul, the rule has been there from the beginning. And if you change it to say a robot can't fully cross back over the line, then all you've done is move the line.

[Morgan Gillespie]

I agree, this penalty has been known about from the beginning and if you are finding it difficult to follow, then it is something you need to change. Slow down teams. Take it slow, be patient, and if there isn't a way to move without causing a penalty, don't move. Robots will clear out of the way, just wait a second or two. Each 10 point penalty you earn for your alliance destroys the work of 5 laps.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by waialua359

I can see shooter/catapult bots having an easy time meeting the rule.

Even lap-running bots are running into trouble with this rule, because it's very easy to drive around the lane divider at the far end of the field, hit some congestion, and then swing the corner of your bumper across the line while trying to maneuver out. The reflectivity of the polycarb on the lane divider makes visibility very difficult.

[AdamHeard]

Yes, the rules has been there from the beginning.... but it is seriously putting a damper on gameplay.

His suggestion to change it doesn't really affect the intent of the rule at all, and will allow robots more maneuvering options leading to higher scoring and more exciting matches. Traffic will still flow counterclockwise, and matches will be better.

I doubt the GDC ever wants to design a game where penalties determine matches (I'm not saying they did, don't flame).

[robostangs548]

This game was built around penalties... we will just have to learn to live with it i guess...

[TubaMorg]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

And if you change it to say a robot can't fully cross back over the line, then all you've done is move the line.

Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by TubaMorg

Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.

I doubt it, and your logic is highly circular.

You're saying no matter what teams are going to get penalties, because that's just the way it is. I saw way too many experienced teams who most certainly know better, and certainly were trying not to go "backwards" who got put into a place where they received penalties that could have been avoided under Dave's proposal.

This is not like the tether reversal of 2002. It's not going to trivialize everyone's work and give half the teams an unfair advantage. It's simply going to make gameplay more dynamic and exciting. It will still penalize teams attempting to impede the flow of traffic, and allow teams who get stuck or need to manuever around someone a small amount of leeway.

Yes we knew about the rule from the start. But that doesn't mean that as written it's the best possible solution. Rules that prove to not be practical or effective ought to be changed or removed.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by TubaMorg

Here is the most important point of this discussion. If the rule were changed then just as many penalties would be called because teams would knowingly cross back partially but sometimes cross too far.

Obviously we have no way of knowing without actually changing the rule, but I disagree with this. In the current state you get a penalty for going even an inch across the line. I will be honest, I have never driven a FIRST robot in a competition and I was only on the drive team for one match (I was sick as a dog and after one practice match decided that being on the drive team was not helping anything), however I have a very strong feeling that for most drivers, seeing exactly where their robot is with respect to that line and making sure the corner of their bumper does not cross it when maneuvering around traffic on the far side of the field with the lane divider in the way is probably very difficult. I think giving them two to three feet of wiggle room would definitely result in less penalties than we are seeing so far.

Also, I wanted to address something that has not yet popped up, but I know will in this thread sooner or later. I know that someone is going to come in and say that it is the first day of week 1 regionals and that drivers will get better as the weeks go by. Well, according to this, for 75% of teams, things won't get any better. There drivers will not have any more practice than the drivers we are seeing rack up the penalty points.