NJ Elim Yellow Card Oddity

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

I may be confusing rules between years here but what gives the refs the power to disqualify a team (303 earlier in the competitiin) or give a team a yellow card in the first place for ramming into a wall in teleoperated mode? Correct me if I Am wrong but if a robot bashes the wall and makes your control box fall I have no sympathy for your team for not strapping it in with the provided Velcro in the drivers station! It is a sucky situation for you if your control box drops but its your own fault IMHO.

Their autonomous hit the players station after already being warned the first time their robot did it. They ignored the warning, so the second infraction was a yellow card.

Regarding giving the entire alliance a yellow, it seems to be an interpretation of Rule <T11>. This should be addressed next week.

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Their autonomous hit the players station after already being warned the first time their robot did it. They ignored the warning, so the second infraction was a yellow card.

Regarding giving the entire alliance a yellow, it seems to be an interpretation of Rule <T11>. This should be addressed next week.

As a member of 836, a member of the 816 Alliance, I understand why 816 got the yellow card, and I understand that if they had another infraction the entire alliance would have been DQ'd - but I think the call to give us (836) and 708 a yellow card was incorrect. My reading of the rules show this to be a misinterpretation of <T05> - <T11>. At no point does it say the yellow card goes to an alliance, only mentions a "Team."

Best regards,

Steve

[Anne Shade]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Their autonomous hit the players station after already being warned the first time their robot did it. They ignored the warning, so the second infraction was a yellow card.

Regarding giving the entire alliance a yellow, it seems to be an interpretation of Rule <T11>. This should be addressed next week.

Actually Dan,

The team was warned during Qualifying matches, not eliminations. When teams enter eliminations, their slate is supposed to be wiped clean. However, this year's yellow card is to be given for "egregious" robot or team member actions. If the head ref thought the one time was egregious, the yellow card could have been given. That is up to that particular head referee's interpretation of the action. I'm not sure exactly which rule the head ref believed was violated "egregiously" in this case because I can't seem to find one. I guess you could lump it under S01...

My question is whether or not the timing of the yellow card was appropriate. The yellow card was given during the reset of the match. To me, that would mean the match had yet to be completed. Can a team receive a yellow card for a match that had yet to be completed? What if their robot had again rammed the player wall when they replayed the match, would the alliance get DQ'ed for receiving a second yellow card in the same match?

This kinda follows Dez's point about the time out being called during the middle of the match...

[George A.]

Originally Posted by Anne Shade

Actually Dan,

The team was warned during Qualifying matches, not eliminations. When teams enter eliminations, their slate is supposed to be wiped clean. However, this year's yellow card is to be given for "egregious" robot or team member actions. If the head ref thought the one time was egregious, the yellow card could have been given. That is up to that particular head referee's interpretation of the action. I'm not sure exactly which rule the head ref believed was violated "egregiously" in this case because I can't seem to find one. I guess you could lump it under S01...

My question is whether or not the timing of the yellow card was appropriate. The yellow card was given during the reset of the match. To me, that would mean the match had yet to be completed. Can a team receive a yellow card for a match that had yet to be completed? What if their robot had again rammed the player wall when they replayed the match, would the alliance get DQ'ed for receiving a second yellow card in the same match?

This kinda follows Dez's point about the time out being called during the middle of the match...

The match had to be called off due to loss of communication with the field at the competition port plug in. Had the controller just been broken the match would've continued (see the match where 303 was DQ'ed). But since the field itself was broken and needed repair, the match was null and void, which is when the alliance used their time-out.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by George A.

The match had to be called off due to loss of communication with the field on the part of the robot. Had the controller just been broken the match would've continued (see the match where 303 was DQ'ed). But since the field itself was broken and needed repair, the match was null and void, which is when the alliance used their time-out.

George, after watching the video today with our robocoach we had assumed that the issue was not with the control panel but the field itself, it's nice to see some clarification though. Btw, nice Job announcing in NJ, also do you have your rap written down somewhere? I can see the yellow card rules being clarified in the next update

I would like to motion that any rule or clarification of a rule on this matter shall be nicknamed the 816 rule. Anyone with me?

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by thefro526

I would like to motion that any rule or clarification of a rule on this matter shall be nicknamed the 816 rule. Anyone with me?

How about the 816 Alliance rule!

Best regards,

Steve

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

How about the 816 Alliance rule!

Best regards,

Steve

Fair enough, from now on we will call this rule the "816 Alliance rule". Does anyone know of what rule number refers to this? I searched and could not find it.

I just checked the most recent rule book published by FIRST and there is no mention of an alliance sharing a yellow card in the Tournament section, they just refer to anyone robot getting a red card DQ's the entire alliance

[EricH]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Fair enough, from now on we will call this rule the "816 Alliance rule". Does anyone know of what rule number refers to this? I searched and could not find it.

I just checked the most recent rule book published by FIRST and there is no mention of an alliance sharing a yellow card in the Tournament section, they just refer to anyone robot getting a red card DQ's the entire alliance

There isn't one at this point. On either count (other than the red card rule).

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by George A.

But since the field itself was broken and needed repair ...

A Ha! Teams are prohibited from destroying the field or field elements. (That doesn't explain the group yellow card, though.)

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Anne Shade

Actually Dan,

The team was warned during Qualifying matches, not eliminations. When teams enter eliminations, their slate is supposed to be wiped clean. However, this year's yellow card is to be given for "egregious" robot or team member actions. If the head ref thought the one time was egregious, the yellow card could have been given. That is up to that particular head referee's interpretation of the action. I'm not sure exactly which rule the head ref believed was violated "egregiously" in this case because I can't seem to find one. I guess you could lump it under S01...

My question is whether or not the timing of the yellow card was appropriate. The yellow card was given during the reset of the match. To me, that would mean the match had yet to be completed. Can a team receive a yellow card for a match that had yet to be completed? What if their robot had again rammed the player wall when they replayed the match, would the alliance get DQ'ed for receiving a second yellow card in the same match?

This kinda follows Dez's point about the time out being called during the middle of the match...

I totally agree with you about the timing issue - the Head Ref should've technically waited until after the match had completely ended before giving out a yellow card. Your second hypothetical is moot because generally a yellow card is severe enough punishment to correct the behavior or at minimum abort the hybrid strategy as to not risk getting a red card.

There is no rule that says that the "slate" is wiped clean for eliminations, only that cards do not carry over into eliminations. Unofficial warnings are given to prevent egregious behavior throughout the entire competition, and aren't official rulings on the field. The head ref might've thought that the team was performing programmed egregious behavior the first time, but gave the chance to correct the programmed behavior. Since the behavior was apparently not rectified to the satisfaction of the referee, and the behavior was not severe enough to deserve a DQ, a yellow card was given.

<T11> allows for red cards to be given to the entire alliance, but gives no procedure for yellow cards in elimination rounds. I'm not saying that this ref's interpretation was correct or incorrect, but giving the most likely reasoning. My interpretation up to this point was that a yellow card was given to an individual team on the alliance, but two yellow cards accrued by an alliance results in a DQ for the entire alliance in elims. This may be an incorrect interpretation of the rules. The correct interpretation will no doubt be resolved by the Head Refs this week before the next round of regionals.

At any rate, in general, yellow cards are really no big deal. If you get one you should take it seriously, but since there is no real consequence of a yellow card, save temporary embarrassment, there shouldn't be this much outrage over yellow cards. They're not attached to your "permanent record" and nobody cares about them after the tournament is finished. As defined in T05, a yellow card is an Official Warning, and nothing more.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

At any rate, in general, yellow cards are really no big deal. If you get one you should take it seriously, but since there is no real consequence of a yellow card, save temporary embarrassment, there shouldn't be this much outrage over yellow cards. They're not attached to your "permanent record" and nobody cares about them after the tournament is finished. As defined in T05, a yellow card is an Official Warning, and nothing more.

I kinda hope teams don't just shrugs off Yellow Cards like this. Or, at least, I hope any team in the Elims doesn't. If you've gotten a Yellow Card, it's usually for a good reason, and it means the refs are going to be watching you a little more closely. If my team got carded in the elims I know we'd be a little more wary of our actions for fear of getting a second card and DQ'd. I can't imagine that a Yellow Card wouldn't have some sort of effect on a team unless they're completely oblivious and uncaring about how their actions might affect their alliance.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Also, the GDC came back with an answer and basically said "Not standard, but if the refs felt a multiple card was appropriate...."

Which seems a bit of a cop out. I can understand that they don't have all the details, etc. But some sort of statement saying the refs could if they felt the card was deserved for some action or collusion on the part of the whole alliance.... But based on even the vague answer provided and the fact that the announcer said it was for the autonomous driving of the one team... I'd say the refs missed the call with the group yellow card.

[Danny McC]

I actually felt pretty bad after I wasn't able to stop the bot in time. So I walked over and asked them if everything was ok and if I could do anything to help.