Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid

[AdamHeard]

After just seeing 1114 and 1024's amazing hybrid modes illegally impeded, i have to post this.

CMON!

If you are going to call high speed ramming in hybrid, at least be consistent and call it when teams make their hybrid drive 3 feet forward to blatantly impede in hybrid.

I've seen 1114 lose multiple matches because impeding was allowed. Even with the 10 point penalty assessed, it is cheap; 1024 and 1114 could've easily scored another 12-20 points in hybrid there.

[Branden Ghena]

I believe an update allows impeding in hybrid mode.

[AdamHeard]

Okay, based on update 2 and 5, I see that no mention of impeding exists in hybrid mode.

Still, I don't like that high speed ramming is called, when it is clearly an unintentional act, and impeding is. Also, I will be very upset to see any team get called for ramming in hybrid after they hit a robot that drove 3 feet to impede traffic in hybrid (that would not be illegal, as the 3 foot drive is attempting to get hit, and you can't draw penalties). It's a shady strategy overall.

I understand it is legal per the rules now, I'm just venting.

[usbcd36]

The rules used to prohibit impeding all the time, but were changed in team update 2.

Rule <G40>
IMPEDING Traffic –ROBOTS shall not intentionally IMPEDE the flow of traffic
around the TRACK. During the Teleoperated Period, a ROBOT will be considered
to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding
around the TRACK. A ROBOT can be found to be IMPEDING traffic if:
 the ROBOT is traveling slowly relative to the approaching ROBOT, and
moving to prevent the approaching ROBOT from passing, or
 the ROBOT is stopped on the TRACK and there is no clear lane of passage
for the opposing ROBOT, or
 the ROBOT pins an opposing ROBOT against an arena element, border, or
another ROBOT
Note that a ROBOT is not IMPEDING traffic if:
 there is a clear “passing lane” around the ROBOT, or
 the IMPEDING ROBOT and the approaching ROBOT are from the same
ALLIANCE (i.e. a ROBOT can not impede another ROBOT of the same
ALLIANCE), or
 the ROBOT is in the process of HURDLING (except as noted in Rule
<G43>).

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Okay, based on update 2 and 5, I see that no mention of impeding exists in hybrid mode.

Still, I don't like that high speed ramming is called, when it is clearly an unintentional act, and impeding is. Also, I will be very upset to see any team get called for ramming in hybrid after they hit a robot that drove 3 feet to impede traffic in hybrid (that would not be illegal, as the 3 foot drive is attempting to get hit, and you can't draw penalties). It's a shady strategy overall.

I understand it is legal per the rules now, I'm just venting.

I think one difference is that high speed ramming can cause damage to the other robots, while impeding doesn't (unless the other robot is going to fast and cannot stop). I actually like the strategy of having a defensive autonomous. I don't think they are attempting to draw ramming penalties, because that would be wrong.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I think one difference is that high speed ramming can cause damage to the other robots, while impeding doesn't (unless the other robot is going to fast and cannot stop). I actually like the strategy of having a defensive autonomous.

I think it sucks. You aren't allowed to intentionally impede anyone during teleoperated mode, so why should you be able to in hybrid?

[lukevanoort]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I think one difference is that high speed ramming can cause damage to the other robots, while impeding doesn't (unless the other robot is going to fast and cannot stop). I actually like the strategy of having a defensive autonomous.

And that it is kind of hard to require that all teams make their robot able to respond to bumps to pass autonomously, which is the reason why the rules are like they are, I imagine.

[Bongle]

Teams that have high-speed hybrid modes that can get far enough to be impeded likely also have the talent to have a 'stop' command that they can give in hybrid. If you see your team is going to ram another, it's your job to stop it, not their job to get out of the way.

And getting penalties for high-speed in autonomous isn't new. Back in 2006 when drive-straight blocking was all the rage, teams that were deemed too fast would get stern talks from the refs.

[Chuck Glick]

Originally Posted by Bongle

Teams that have high-speed hybrid modes that can get far enough to be impeded likely also have the talent to have a 'stop' command that they can give in hybrid. If you see your team is going to ram another, it's your job to stop it, not their job to get out of the way.

And getting penalties for high-speed in autonomous isn't new. Back in 2006 when drive-straight blocking was all the rage, teams that were deemed too fast would get stern talks from the refs.

But what if your IR isnt strong enough? you get a penalty because your remote isnt as good as the next teams? and crossing the line to hit the estop is a penalty too. So what gives? you get a penalty just for trying to NOT get a penalty.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Chuck Glick

But what if your IR isnt strong enough? you get a penalty because your remote isnt as good as the next teams? and crossing the line to hit the estop is a penalty too. So what gives? you get a penalty just for trying to NOT get a penalty.

There are many solutions:
Slow down as you enter their zone, or use a different technology than IR, or have a command that says "warning: the opposing team is blocking us, slow down when you enter their zone", and give it as soon as you see that the opposing team is trying to impede you. You don't have to give a real-time command to stop.

Actually, aren't the robo-coach stations for your alliance located at both ends of your home zone? That means as you enter the most likely area for impediment entering the opposing home-zone, your robocoach is just feet away.

I don't think there's been a year where high-speed in autonomous has been A-OK. If you're going to go fast, there had better be some form of safety for other teams, whether it is a robocoach stop command, not going fast when you're likely to encounter others, or active detection like ultrasound or cameras. The alternative amounts to: "I want 120lbs of metal to go as fast as possible in hybrid, and if another team gets damaged by that, it's not my fault: it's hybrid mode"

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Bongle

And getting penalties for high-speed in autonomous isn't new. Back in 2006 when drive-straight blocking was all the rage, teams that were deemed too fast would get stern talks from the refs.

I think this is a poor comparison, because as you said, the intent was clearly for these teams to ram another team to mess up their autonomous program.

1114 in specific was yellow carded for ramming an opponent. Their autonomous is clearly not designed to hit other teams to interfere with them. It;s designed to go around the field and score points. This is a crucial difference.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think this is a poor comparison, because as you said, the intent was clearly for these teams to ram another team to mess up their autonomous program.

1114 in specific was yellow carded for ramming an opponent. Their autonomous is clearly not designed to hit other teams to interfere with them. It;s designed to go around the field and score points. This is a crucial difference.

I guess my response to that was what I edited in just as you posted: the intent may be to have a successful autonomous mode and not to hurt anyone, but to have 120lbs of metal moving as fast as it can without trying (or rather: to have a game where there is no incentive) to reduce the amount of damage it'd do to things in its path can be seen as a bit reckless. There needs to be some pressure on teams to reduce speeds when they might encounter opponents (like when they enter the opposing team's home zone where impeding teams are likely to be).

[EricVicenti]

Yesterday morning at the drivers meeting here in Portland, the question came up. The head ref said impeding was illegal during hybrid, intentional or not. However, I have never seen them call it, though I have seen them call ramming, even though it was unintentional.

[Jonathan Norris]

how about this: you are not allowed to intentionally impeed robots in your home zone, so basically you are not allowed in that zone to drive 3 feet and stop, but otherwise its allright. Because if there isn't going to be rule change here, its going to become common place for teams to drive 3 feet to stop the good hybrid bots.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Cory

Their autonomous is clearly not designed to hit other teams to interfere with them.

Regardless of the ramming team's intent, high-speed ramming penalties exist to protect the other robots from damage.