Rule G22 needs to be changed

[Bomberofdoom]

I agree. I hope this does not affect too much the 1st week regional teams and hope that the change of the rule (if there will be one) will help make the following regionals become more fair and less tense for the drivers so that we can see the max out of them.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

I think I like this solution better than any of the other ones I've seen so far, something that would give you a few seconds to correct your mistake, instead of x amount of inches leeway. It would keep the intention of the rule, without being so strict.

I'm not so sure I agree, because this allows teams to go as far back as they want without penalty, with a fast robot this can mean acquiring a ball that would have been lost, which does effect the outcome of the game. I would say that a possible combination of the two might be better. What Dave suggested plus a time:

Once a team has completely passed over the lane divider, they can not go fully past the line or break the lane divider plane for more than 5 seconds, this prevents ball chasing (keeping the rules intent), and gives more maneuvering room.

[KTorak]

I agree the rule has been there all along but from my 3 previous years of driver experience (year #4 this season), it is already hard enough to see across the field and deal with driving when there are robots blocking your view. I can only imagine how hard the poly carb makes this task this year. From our practice at home, it will be very hard not to cross the line that is vertical on the field when trying to get a trackball or avoiding other robots since there is very little room to maneuver in that area of the field. I watched enough of the webcasts to realize that too many matches are being decided by penalties and that something should be done. Matches should not have this many penalties. I really don't agree with assessing points in Hybrid mode since this type of task has already been hard enough from some teams. Maybe change it to "completely entering a new quadrant" or reduce the amount of penalty points assessed/limit the total number of penalty points. Or going to the old pinning count down would be a good way to go about this. You have 5 seconds to return to the right side or something. Even removing the Hybrid penalties would be nice, I can't recall ever being in a match where penalties were given in non teleoperated mode in the past 3 years of my experience.

[Tetraman]

G22 shouldn't be changed. It's a totally reasonable rule.

Take a little time and slow down and make that turn. Don't go after a trackaball you can't, and pull back from a robot jam if you can't see.

No ref likes to give out penalties. That doesn't mean they are going to fix the rules so they don't have to hand them out.

[ALIBI]

It seemed like the more the teams played, the less the rule was being violated. Maybe we can get used to it the way it reads. The heartbreaker is that I did not see anyone get the penalty that was blatantly going full speed with every intention of getting back into the quadrant they just came out of, no one was willingly breaking the rule (OK, we should and did penalize the way off course Hybrid errors and we still should). The intent of the rule was to keep robots going counter clockwise, it did that very well, I just do not think that a couple inches beyond it worth loosing ten points. Most times they only moved back a couple inches due to a traffic jam in front of them with no way around. How many impeading penalties were called and how may times did they not get penalized because another robot was pushing clockwise? The problem comes from the fact that this is the same area the trackballs tend to end up and that is where everyone is making their turns. It seems to get crowded at the ends of the field much faster.

My solution to this would be to make a the stripe the same width as the finish line with the stripe in front of the current line (counter clockwise). Then have a clarification in the rules something along the lines of: A Robot will be considered to be past a Lane Marker or Finish Line when it is physically possible to determine that the robot is completely past the far edge of the Lane Market or Finish Line when traveling in a counter clockwise direction. A Robot will be considered in violation of <R22> when it is physically possible to determine that any part of the robot passes over the far edge of a Lane Marker or Finish Line in a clockwise direction once it has been determined the robot crossed the Lane Market or Finish Line in a counter clockwise direction. Giving them up to 80 inches of robot just seems a little excessive to correct a problem that usually only envoles a couple of inches.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Paul, what I'm seeing a lot of and the reason I think this needs to be changed is that we're seeing lots of tank-steer robots which cross the line then start to tank-turn which causes one of their corners to back up slightly, creating a shadow about 1" long on the other side of the line and BAM... penalty. The majority of the penalties I'm seeing are not at all intentional and many are coming from younger teams with less experienced drivers.

Incidentally, I think we've only been penalized for this once. I'm not arguing for this change for the benefit of our team, but rather the many other less experienced teams that are getting dinged repeatedly basically just because they have inexperienced drivers and robots that aren't quite as easy to control.

Maybe it's just not being enforced as strictly at your regional as here.

I think that the rule should stay just as it is.

It's my opinion that the GDC wanted this to not only be a fast game but a game about control of that speed.

We were at BAE, and the rule there was strictly enforced. We are a lap bot (with Skid steer) getting between 4 and 8 laps per match. In the 16 matches that we played (10 seeding, 6 elimination) we got a grand total of 1 penalty, and that was basically driver error. We are lucky to have an experianced drive team, and as such we were able to avoid alot of the penalties that other teams were gathering.

My suggestion: Do not change the rule ... change the way your drivers are driving. Keep your robot under control.

[jgannon]

To those of you who are saying "duh, just don't run into congestion", I submit to you the following exhibits. Note that when you are standing in the rightmost player station (Red/Blue 3), you cannot see what is going on at the transition into the opponent's home zone. The reflection of the diamond plate on the polycarb makes you feel like you can see straight through to the player station, when really there is a robot hiding back there. I haven't made up my mind on whether the rule needs to be changed, but the situation is not as easy as an armchair coach might think.

(Thanks to Joe Pernick and Jim Zondag for bringing this to my attention.)

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

and pull back from a robot jam if you can't see.

That's exactly one of the actions that causes these penalties most often. If you've already crossed the line, see a traffic jam, and try to back up, you get a penalty.

[SU 39]

Originally Posted by jgannon

To those of you who are saying "duh, just don't run into congestion", I submit to you the following exhibits. Note that when you are standing in the rightmost player station (Red/Blue 3), you cannot see what is going on at the transition into the opponent's home zone. The reflection of the diamond plate on the polycarb makes you feel like you can see straight through to the player station, when really there is a robot hiding back there. I haven't made up my mind on whether the rule needs to be changed, but the situation is not as easy as an armchair coach might think.

(Thanks to Joe Pernick and Jim Zondag for bringing this to my attention.)
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...9&d=1204417424
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...0&d=1204417432

I don't think there's much more to say other than....

[Eugene Fang]

Originally Posted by jgannon

To those of you who are saying "duh, just don't run into congestion", I submit to you the following exhibits. Note that when you are standing in the rightmost player station (Red/Blue 3), you cannot see what is going on at the transition into the opponent's home zone. The reflection of the diamond plate on the polycarb makes you feel like you can see straight through to the player station, when really there is a robot hiding back there. I haven't made up my mind on whether the rule needs to be changed, but the situation is not as easy as an armchair coach might think.

(Thanks to Joe Pernick and Jim Zondag for bringing this to my attention.)

that is a really great point, and the pictures illustrate it very well. I guess a solution would be to make sure the "blind spots" are brightly lit from the other side of the polycarbonate, and hopefully you would be able to see the area a bit better.

[Chaos204]

As the driver this year i have a few comments to make that might add to the discussion. My last match (and an unfortunate number of my other matches) was decided by one ten point penalty, we went from being up by six to down by two. Now, I have not looked at match footage yet so i do not know what the infraction was like on the part of my alliance partner, but i did notice something today. Glare is the worst thing to contend with in this game. I truly feel bad for the teams with lightly colored robots and even worse unpainted aluminum. In some driver stations I can only see the bumpers of my robot because they are dark blue.

I without any exaggeration could not see how many robots were on the other team. I was totally convinced there was only one robot on the other side before hybrid started. I had to look at the screen to realize how many robots there were.

It is very difficult to see white with all the glare and unfortunately the line is white and parallel with the poles of the lane divider making it very difficult to see the line's exact position.

I think after further analyzing what we have seen this weekend most of the infractions were on the side opposite the alliance (with the exception of bots crossing the line while hurdling which i feel is a team's fault in design rather than an oversight by the GDC) We should certainly leave it up to the GDC to decide how to react to these unfortunate circumstances. Hopefully for the game's integrity they will make a small adjustment to cope with these problems whether it be choosing a more contrasting color for the line or decreasing the penalty's severity.

[Betty_Krocker]

yeah i dont like the rule either, or any rule for that matter
but even if it was changed... all the week one regions would have to be replayed because it would totally change the outcome...

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Chaos204

My last match (and an unfortunate number of my other matches) was decided by one ten point penalty, we went from being up by six to down by two.

Was the penalty for poor arithmetic skills?

[ahecht]

I was only a spectator at BAE, but the number of penalties per match seemed excessive. At one point, the announcer even said "not a lot of penalties in this match -- only two". The fact that a low-penalty match had a total of 20 points deducted is probably not what the GDC intended.

Imagine someone watching this game who didn't know FIRST, and seeing 4-5 penalties in many matches. Would they come away with a sense of the gracious professionalism that the teams displayed, or would they come away thinking that FIRST teams like to play dirty, and can't even follow the rules? I think the proposed rule change in post one would greatly improve the game from a spectator's point of view, not to mention from the team's point of view.

[Gary Bonner]

Originally Posted by jgannon

To those of you who are saying "duh, just don't run into congestion", I submit to you the following exhibits. Note that when you are standing in the rightmost player station (Red/Blue 3), you cannot see what is going on at the transition into the opponent's home zone. The reflection of the diamond plate on the polycarb makes you feel like you can see straight through to the player station, when really there is a robot hiding back there. I haven't made up my mind on whether the rule needs to be changed, but the situation is not as easy as an armchair coach might think.

(Thanks to Joe Pernick and Jim Zondag for bringing this to my attention.)

Wow. They don't even look like the same picture. I see a market for custom polarized safety glasses with the plane of polarization rotated 90 degrees from standard sunglasses.