Competition Professionalism

[Akash Rastogi]

Like said above, FIRST is serious competition while having fun. That is why Woodie says that "It will be the hardest fun you will ever have."

That pretty much says it all.

[Drwurm]

All these teams have been working feverishly for 6 weeks, and this is the final culmination of all that work. Sounds like the perfect dancing situation. Even engineers at major companies celebrate together after a successful project.

Also regionals might be the only time some of us ever get to dance without being laughed at!

[henryBsick]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Oh.
Maybe we are not on the same page to begin with. What you are expressing in this quote that I've included in my post is the impact of science and technology on the students. The effect of the FIRST experience on them. If I have this wrong, correct me.

To me, the competitions are the culmination of the build experience of the team. Yes, there are people who drop by an outreach event and a competition and they are inspired by the robots/the competition. But the teams are made up of team members who have worked together to create the robot and prepare it for the competition. Therein lies a big part of the inspiration, the impact of the experience on the students and where they will take that experience in their careers.

I can honestly see a thread started to address your concerns about the FIRST effect on students. I see that as a different topic than the celebration and dancing at a FIRST Robotics competition.

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.



Ultimately:
I love to cheer for the matches. More professionalism can easily be attained while still have a ton of fun. I just see the on field mass group dancing as a side effect to a potential falling off of technically oriented students. Yes there are many facets to a team that are not technically oriented, it is a necessity. I am worried about the students who "fall through the cracks" if you will and are not involved in any way.

[Vikesrock]

I'm not really sure where to start here as I don't think I agree with a single word of this post.

I guess I'll start at the top and work my way down.

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I am a volunteer in the mentor sense. Team #125 and various other teams in the Boston area. I have also been involved since 7th grade lego league.
For this discussion, we can assume that I don't care at what time I get home.
I am lividly afraid that there are kids out there who go to the events and have nothing, and had nothing, to do with the robot. It is only a social event. Where is the inspiration and recognition in that?

Instead of retyping things I have already written I will refer you over to a recent post I made in another thread . I think this thread also provides some pretty good insight about how difficult it is to get people to come if they have no interest and what happens when people that think they have a vague interest come and experience FIRST.

Comparing a football game to FIRST is probably a little bit off, like you said FIRST isn't like anything else around.

In some ways comparing sports to FIRST is valid and in others it is not. In this case I think there is at least some validity in the comparison. Many high school sports programs are supported through advertisement by corporations at stadiums and arenas.

You are more or less proving my point.

A random post with a ridiculous suggestion from a poster with negative rep (yes I know they are just dots). Is this really what you want to associate your argument with? I would much rather have my grandma see me dance than have her see me play Halo. As far as I'm aware my dancing has not been rated "M for Mature".

The time for repairs is sanctioned in the game and rules itself. Extensions past that are not provided for in the rules. One 6 minute period is still 6 minutes even if the YMCA may be 7 minutes long.

First of all, until someone can tell me that they are absolutely sure that a timeout has been extended (with the team working on their robot during the "extension") I don't think this is an issue. Even if it were an issue there is an easy fix, make the robots be on the field and the teams off it right at the six minutes. Then the drive teams can get in on the dancing if they want! Yes this would potentially allow for more than 6 min. for strategizing during a timeout, but I don't think I have ever seen a team call a timeout to strategize.

Jane, I am just as excited as the next guy for robotic competitions. I really fear though that a lot of the students celebrating are doing so in the dark. I don't think that a majority of kids are actually gaining any insight to science and technology. As FIRST continues to grow, we cannot only be focused on the quantitative analysis, but the qualitative effect it has on each and every student.
5 students who gain an engineering education from FIRST is better than 100 who don't learn a thing.

The quantitative analysis says that FIRSTers are more likely to go to college and more likely to major in science or engineering than non-FIRSTers. The qualitative stories are all around you, Chief Delphi is full of them, I read them all the time and each one inspires and encourages me as well.

FIRST is about "gracious professionalism", behaving like your grandma is watching. That is not the same thing as being "professional" which means wearing a tie and usually not having much fun.

I think one of the most powerful things you can show a sponsor is kids excited to be working with robots. So how do you show them this? Kids usually don't look excited when they are actually working on the robots, many of them look downright concerned, especially at competitions. One of the best ways I can think of to show sponsors that kids are excited about robots is to show them that kids are excited at a robotics competition.

I had some teammates (I'm included here too) that danced along with a number of songs at our regional including the YMCA. I had personally seen these same students (again myself included) totally ignore the entire song at a school dance. So what was the difference between the dance and the FRC competition, we were excited.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.

And now we have a clear view into the importance of the speeches of Dr. Woodie Flowers, Dean Kamen, and the wise Dave Lavery at the 2008 Kick Off. Teams should welcome and encourage engineers to be active mentors and contributors to the team efforts. All teams. If teams are short on engineer support, then set that as a short term and long term goal, continuing to fuel the fires of inspiration.

[galewind]

The way I see a regional competition as a celebration of all of our hard work. It's a big party with excitement, competition, cooperation, and prizes. Thousands of individuals commit an enormous amount of time and energy into getting everyone to perform the same task (in different ways), and we learn from each other and take so much from the program.

Dancing together is another way to celebrate as a group, and I think it's something that should be encouraged because it helps bring people together, and that's a large part of FIRST's mission. Hearing the word "professional" in this context makes me think of sitting in a cold business office all day behind a cubicle wall -- and I just don't feel that FIRST is about that.

[Drwurm]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.

Oh The NERDMANITY!

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.

I agree with you, however what can FIRST do about it? If they take the fun aspects out of it, many of the kids who gain things wouldnt stay in it. I know if I wasnt having fun with it, I wouldnt have been in it since I was 8. I feel that it is up to the teams themselves to make sure each student gets good experience. I dont think FIRST can do anything about it because there are just too many kids they would need to take care of, they just need to keep up a fun environment. It is much more realistic for a team to make sure kids learn something, because they only need to take care of around 20-30 kids, as opposed to FIRST trying to talk with 10,000+ kids. I think FIRST has done everything they can. They are getting major coorporations to provide professionals to teach students. Where else can you find that?? Everything is set up for the students to succeed. If they dont take advantage of this opportunity, it is their own fault.
Joey

[Danny McC]

And I dont see how dancing relates to them not being interested in the goals FIRST is trying to set. They may be involved in the build but when it comes to the competition they may not be involved. And sometimes the ones who dance the most also help with the robots. Example: I told my friend to be in the mascot area today for our first match where she had been dancing the whole time. And her response to me was I will be there if it doesnt interfere with my pit shift. The dancing at competitions is a way to relieve the stress from the six week build season.

[Laaba 80]

Ok, I'm going to explain my FIRST - High School Football comparison because I dont think people know where I am coming from. When it comes down to it, most FIRST teams are a school club, such as a football team. People in both areas come to watch the games, because it is fun times. There is dancing in both between the action, with FIRST everything we are talking about, and with football cheerleaders and mascots. Are all people at both events involved with the team(or roobot) playing? no. However those who are enjoy it so much more. When I was in middle school I played football. I would go to our high school games, and I couldnt wait to become a part of that, and I loved going to them. Once I got into High School though, I found out that the football team has practice every day and to pplay on varsity, you need to be in the weight room 5 days a week, year round. I decided not to join, because for the amount of commitment needed, I didnot like playing enough. Many FIRSTers feel this too because it is a huge commitment. Others just have absolutely no idea, which as I said earlier, I think is the teams job to get them interested.
Joey

[N7UJJ]

"Oh The NERDMANITY!" I love it!

I think comparing corporate professional behavior to FIRST competition behavior does highlight a shortcoming. Conferences and conventions need more dancing! FIRST has it right: celebrate with dance and music! Rejoice with the kids! Those who came just to watch (parents, schoolmates, CEOs) suddenly can (and do) participate WITH the kids. I love it! For 6 or 7 minutes we are all on the same team!

As for delaying the day, it seems the dance is more of a filler for when time is needed on the field or during the pauses during semifinal / final matches. Keeps the crowd busy instead of dead time.

Yup, if there was more dancing during the Democratic / Republican conventions...

[Andrew Schreiber]

FIRST isn't a professional atmosphere. I mean there should be limits, but dancing should be fine. Competitions should be social events, it allows you to meet new people from all over the state/country/world.

You know, dancing is fine, and companies should understand they are kids, theres nothing wrong with dancing and having fun and socializing. Professionalism is one thing, being to uptight to relax and have fun is another thing entirely.

Thats my $.02.

[synth3tk]

Ok, I can't stay out of this one. I'm feeling a bit on the lazy side of posting today, so judge it lightly.

FIRST is about professionalism, yes. But it calls for a somewhat different type of professionalism. I agree with N7UJJ actually pointed out something worth noting, that corporations should take a hint from FIRST events. Big merger went through successfully? Celebrate! Dance! Just signed on a big-name customer? Let's go out for some pizza and drinks! I also concur with everybody who said that this is a stress reliever.

Last year, we (964) didn't do so hot, infact our robot barely worked. But you know what, every one of us had fun. We danced the YMCA, talked with other teams, enjoyed watching matches in between our matches, I even did some dancing and playing with kids in our Bearcat mascot suit. After six grueling weeks of designs, failures, testing, redesigning, and building, I think we all deserve to dance if the machine even turns on!

<rant>
Now, tell me, how many of us could have honestly known what a CNC was? Vice grip? PWM cable? Heck, I couldn't identify what a 7/16 ratchet was, let alone figure out how to use it. We've either learned to drill-and-tap, build a site out of CSS, compile a working autonomous mode, cut a piece of PVC with the bandsaw, or animate a video in 3DS that stresses of the importance of safety. Let me tell you a little secret: I'm wasn't doing so hot in school. This is my senior year, and I had some hardships through the local school administration trying to get homeschool credits transferred. I was seriously thinking about dropping out, why would I want to start over in 9th grade when I was supposed to graduate that year? Anyway, before I left the school, I joined the team, not knowing really what I was getting myself into. Had I not joined FIRST I probably wouldn't have given college a second chance. Sure, my mom, people at church, managers at work, all told me that I should go, it just wasn't the same as seeing a bunch of people learning in such an awesome program. When I was younger, I didn't realize it, but my dad had taken me to the Buckeye Regional, I believe it was 2000. Now, you think I would've wanted to join this if I just saw a bunch of people talking, acting, walking like they had sticks up their butts? One of the things that I like when I was there WAS the dancing. And then, I learn that FIRST hands out millions in scholarships?!? It's a no-brainer. Now I'm preparing to enroll at community college as I finish up my final year through an online school. There are literally hundreds of success stories where students who may have not only decided against going to college, but dropped out of HS, joined up, got involved, and gone to higher education facilities.

If it's the right kind, dancing is, and always will, be appropriate, even in "professional" settings. It can't get in the way of "learning" because for the most part, the learning was done starting January 5th and lasted until mid-February. Like mentioned before, it is only a celebration and showcase of what we accomplished. I'm sorry if you feel FIRST isn't the stiff-collered 9-to-5 straight-forward type of setting you're looking for, but I do hope you accept that, while nothing is perfect, it does what it's supposed to do above-and-beyond what the founder's may have meant for it.

"What's so great about this program, that I should give you the use of our workshop, our engineer(s), of $5,000?" That would be my response if you came to me asking for thousands. Obviously Intel, GM, NASA, Ford, Delphi, and SOOO many more companies, corporations, and businesses sponsored the events and teams, and spending thousands of dollars and man-hours must mean that there's some kind of payoff somewhere, and they endorse this "fun-loving free-for-all".
</rant>


So with that being said, invite them. Invite them with pride and excitement. They want to see that these kids are having fun, enjoying the new robots they worked so hard to build, to learn about.

[RyanN]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

FIRST regional events have come to the point where I would second guess inviting in a new corporate sponsor to view the competition.
Take of it what you will. This is how I feel, I am curious if others share my sentiment.

I'm going to take the original question and ignore all the other posts. I believe a corporate sponsor would love to see something he/she is supporting as fun and worthy. Say I was a big sponsor, Ryan Co., and Team Fusion asked me to support them and go to competition with them. At competition, all Team Fusion did was sit and watch a match, no cheering, no excitement, no dancing, it is just about the robot, Chairmans, 3D Max, and website. I would have to ask myself, "Why am I paying for something that these students don't enjoy?" I would probably not support the team again.

Now on the contrary. I support Team Fusion; Fusion brings me to competition; I see the kids having fun and I see everything that they do. I would most likely support them next year, and possibly get more involved.

Keep in mind one of the awards given, the Spirit Award.

[Uberbots]

What happens at the competition reflects very little of what happens inside of the robotics room. The competition is 2 days out of an entire year that you cannot see.
Your point is that having the competition as a social event is a bad thing because... dancing doesnt promote engineering or science (unless you want to get into the physics and chemical influences that cause dancing to occur, but thats beyond the scope of this thread)
The thing is though, some of the most engineering-inspired students on the team look forward to the competitions because the whole point of it is having fun. Like any competition, the point is to win, and if you lose you still had fun trying. Not every student who is at the competition can be serious- even if they want to- because there isn't enough room in the pits, or there are already too many people on the field or whatever.
think about it. if they give a SPIRIT AWARD out at the competitions, wouldn't you think the people at FIRST are promoting the idea of dancing you drop?