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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:30
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3_1565 View Post
See the problem with this argument it the fact that the refs have to assume things.. which they aren't going to do. You can't assume they are blocking on purpose, as was said (wrong place at the wrong time). and you can't assume that the speedy bots aren't trying to hit people (they only do laps cause they "miss" the opposing robots). So if you leave it up to assuming they you will get bad calls.

Better to make sure your robot doesn't travel a billion mile an hour around a corner or, like was said, in the opposing zone.

And as was said a billion mile an hour auto mode has never been allowed, why should it be now, whereas defensive autos have always been allowed.
Firstly, it was extremely evident to me that certain teams started off with automodes that traveled around the field, then they figured out that they weren't working that well, and that other teams were getting HUGE hybrid scores. At this point I noticed said teams abandoning their previous efforts, moving forward three feet, and stopping. Why else would you do this, when it goes against previously established behavior, unless you were trying to impede the opposing alliance?

Furthermore, a "billion mile an hour" automode has been allowed. Teams have had extremely fast autonomous modes in 2003 and 2004. I saw some extremely violent collisions in both years. I don't ever recall seeing a DQ or penalty for such.

Your point about defensive automodes always being allowed is kind of moot, as the Q&A referenced above clearly prohibits it this season.

If there's no way to determine intent with respect to blocking (and I think there very clearly is. It was 110% clear who was attempting to impede other alliances, and who was trying to run laps), then I think there's no logical way that you can penalize/yellow card/dq a team that happens to hit such a team who may or may not be impeding the track intentionally.

If you penalize the team trying to navigate the field, then the impeding robot has scored a double victory--they have avoided a yellow card that I believe they certainly deserve, and they have given their opponent a penalty/yellow/red card. How is this fair?

I think a yellow card is a totally justifiable penalty. With teams like MWR had, two good hybrid bots on one alliance can score between 24-32 points in lines, and 8-16 points in balls, plus whatever the third robot can do. With teams impeding at the far lane divider, the most these 2 teams can score is 16 points in lines and 8-16 points in balls. Even if the offending team were assessed a 10 point penalty, they have effectively negated up to 24-32 points for the other alliance. Without the yellow card, it would be totally worth it for everyone who did not have a great hybrid mode to just camp at the corner and take 10 point penalties all day, to keep more than 10 points from being scored against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3_1565 View Post
I agree a verbal warning would of been good, instead of right to the yellow card
To be fair to the referees, us armchair quarterbacks have no idea whether 1114 was or was not given such a warning prior to being carded.
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Last edited by Cory : 01-03-2008 at 22:33.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:32
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

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Originally Posted by Laxphan1525 View Post
the refs weren't calling the impeding traffic award.
Dang I want that award =D

From the webcasts, I didnt see this being called either.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:40
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

Remember that per <G40>:
Quote:
Note that a ROBOT is not IMPEDING traffic if:
• there is a clear “passing lane” around the ROBOT.
If all three teams drove out and stopped right next to each other, that might be a violation. Otherwise, it seems like fair defense to me.
On the whole, I don't like the idea of being penalized for what happens in autonomous mode. There are so many things that can go wrong, and the only way to stop the robot is to E-stop - which disables the robot for the rest of the match. Perhaps there should be an autonomous-only E-stop.
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Last edited by StevenB : 01-03-2008 at 22:44. Reason: looked at some of the video
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:40
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

After thinking about this problem for a while I think MWR refs actually did a pretty good job. One of the things that I think is most important in a ref crew is consistancy, basically, dont call a penalty on 1 team and not call it when another team does the same thing. The MWR called the penalty on the robot moving, and not on the team impeding. I dont think this was the right call, however after the first incident, all teams knew the risks of autonomous mode. I would have liked to see it called the other way, however they took over a problem that wasnt braught up before and remained consistant with it. I dont think the yellow card had a large impact on 1114, however I may be wrong.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:43
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostmage333 View Post
From the webcasts, I didnt see this being called either.
If you didn't see this penalty being called, it is likely that either the blocked team had not bumped to pass, there was a clear lane around the impeding bot, one of the impeding bots was from the same alliance as the robot being impeded, the impeding robot was in the process of hurdling, or the impeding action didn't last for more than six seconds. Many impeding counts were started. Not many penalties were called. Please read <G40> and <G41> to understand how this rule actually works.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:44
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenB View Post
Remember that per <G40>:
There are so many things that can go wrong, and the only way to stop the robot is to E-stop - which disables the robot for the rest of the match. Perhaps there should be an autonomous-only E-stop.
That's what your IR board is for.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:45
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
To be fair to the referees, us armchair quarterbacks have no idea whether 1114 was or was not given such a warning prior to being carded.
That was the first time they hit someone that hard (I believe anyways) so no they weren't warned.

Secondly, I don't think ethier should get a yellow card simply cause you can't penalize a robot that doesn't move. A lap bot takes a wide turn and crashes into a robot without an auto mode and that bot gets a yellow card for impeding?? Is that fair??

Ethier way no yellow cards should be awarded, not right away anyways.
It was a little unfair, but when 1114 got a yellow card, they didn't hit a "drive 3 feet and stop" bot, they hit a bot who had crossed one line. So I believe a warning would of worked.. but I'm not a ref.

It comes down to what people assume, and unfortunatly that changes from person to person, and bad calls will always be called, and some people won't think they are bad calls, and some people will.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:46
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

As soon as the robot makes a turn, your IR board becomes somewhat useless.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:48
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

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Originally Posted by T3_1565 View Post
That was the first time they hit someone that hard (I believe anyways) so no they weren't warned.
If you weren't on the field, you would have no way of knowing whether a team received a warning.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:52
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

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Originally Posted by T3_1565 View Post
A lap bot takes a wide turn and crashes into a robot without an auto mode and that bot gets a yellow card for impeding?? Is that fair??
The rule is for intentional impeding. If a robot has never had an autonomous mode, I think it is safe to assume they arent doing it intentionally.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 22:58
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

There's no crying in robotics!
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Unread 01-03-2008, 23:06
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I think it sucks. You aren't allowed to intentionally impede anyone during teleoperated mode, so why should you be able to in hybrid?
What if you arent "intentionally" impeding? sure if you have an auto mode that drives forward 3 feet and stops, its impeding, but so could an auto that hits the middle wall and breaks. A rule preventing impeding during hybrid would be very subjective considering the large potential for error.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 23:12
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

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Originally Posted by Uberbots View Post
What if you arent "intentionally" impeding? sure if you have an auto mode that drives forward 3 feet and stops, its impeding, but so could an auto that hits the middle wall and breaks. A rule preventing impeding during hybrid would be very subjective considering the large potential for error.
I really think it's pretty obvious who has an auto mode that does something, and goes wrong, and who has an auto mode that's sole purpose is to impede other robots.

In the above situation, you could easily tell by assessing whether it stopped short of the divider, hits the divider and keeps spinning it's wheels, starts madly spinning in circles, etc.

-To anyone playing devil's advocate, an impeding team could certainly have their robot do the above things to mimic a hybrid mode gone bad, but seeing as impeding teams is already illegal, I should hope nobody would stoop to such lows.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 23:25
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

As the robocoach of one of the teams(along with 16, bombsquad), who impeded 1114 and 1024's hybrid mode in the semi-final matches of Chicago, I would like to say, that there was concern about the legality of the strategy. We specifically asked the refs if that would be called a penalty.

Saying that a low numbered team(team 16 bombsquad) should have known better is ridiculous. The rules allowed it and it did not cause any excess risk of damage to robots or humans.

Honestly I would be fine seeing this change over to a penalty, but don't rip on us for playing with some strategy.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 23:26
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid

Just so we are clear on what we mean by 3 feet and stop, look at what 48/16 did to 1114 in quals/elims.

They were probably under the influence it was a legal move, as this is a grayish area in the minds of most.

I believe it should be illegal, because of the Q&A ruling that states it is. However, it seemed liked very few people knew about it.

And, this argument isn't even for our own benefit; 973 has yet to run a hybrid mode on our competition bot. We have some decent modes for past robots (so were not all that behind).
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