Competition Professionalism

[henryBsick]

Originally Posted by TdorTheBnator

I don't see how the on field dancing is so horrible could you please explain in a PM or send a message to me on AIM. And how can you say the ones of the field dancing are the ones with no function?

I am not saying that.

I feel that the dancing interferes with the time low of the game.
Kids with any number of functions may or may not dance, I am not assuming here.
Kids with no function, that I have seen, generally are out dancing, not paying attention to the competition, hanging out in the arena etc. That does not in any way mean that the kids who dance don't have a function. I am just saying that SOME don't. It is THOSE kids that I am concerned for.

[Laaba 80]

Can every one just stop talking about the dancing? It is what the thread is about, but not the issue that Henry is talking about.

Originally Posted by Henry_222

It is THOSE kids that I am concerned for.

What are you concerned about? Read some of my earlier posts in this thread. It is up to the students about how much they get out of the program. FIRST sets up a program to succeed, all students need to do is commit. You need to stop worrying about those who dont commit because it is their choice. If they dont want to take advantage of this opportunity it is their own problem. Kids will have more fun when they get involved, but they need to take it upon themselves. If they dont want to commit, just go with it. Focus on teaching those who are commited to working and doing their jobs, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the robot.
Joey

[henryBsick]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

Can every one just stop talking about the dancing? It is what the thread is about, but not the issue that Henry is talking about.





What are you concerned about? Read some of my earlier posts in this thread. It is up to the students about how much they get out of the program. FIRST sets up a program to succeed, all students need to do is commit. You need to stop worrying about those who dont commit because it is their choice. If they dont want to take advantage of this opportunity it is their own problem. Kids will have more fun when they get involved, but they need to take it upon themselves. If they dont want to commit, just go with it. Focus on teaching those who are commited to working and doing their jobs, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the robot.
Joey

I read those posts and I agree. I am aware of the students choice to do what they wish to do. I am concerned for the growth of the group of kids who don't have a role. Eventually pushing some quantity of the members of FIRST in a direction that is not encapsulated in the ideals of the program.

[synth3tk]

Well, Henry, that brings up a few things (not the recent post, the one above Laaba's):

1) Either you asked these students/kids what their team position is, or you spent way too much time following them around.

2) Define "falling through the cracks". For the lack of memory and "googling" skills I'll just lightly remind you of Bill Gates. There are many, many others.

3) I understand now where the dancing part comes in, thanks for clarifying it. I do understand that sometimes the dancing may carry on a few minutes more than expected. But if you're a volunteer, that is almost implied, and you really don't have to be here. Cruel, but true. If you're a team member/mentor who does not want to dance, fine. That's your choice. But this is somewhat a celebration, so they're just having fun. Besides, what's the rush? Yes, there is a schedule, and for the most part it is followed pretty strictly by the officials and teams. But even if you're running late, there must be some time to dance, dance, dance.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

Can every one just stop talking about the dancing? It is what the thread is about, but not the issue that Henry is talking about.

Joey,
I think it is ok to talk about all the topics in this thread, dancing being one of them. After some time has passed and we are into the lazy hazy days of summertime, this will be a great thread to read and reflect on. Some of the posts on all the topics involved have been great reads with valuable insights, separately and together.

As the thread has developed, the individual topics have become more evident and so we are dealing with several in one thread. And that's ok, so far we are all managing to work with communication. It's a great opportunity to pay attention to everything that is being said. This has happened in team meetings. One topic evolves into 3 or 4 and then everyone is talking and then chaos. But - if handled carefully and with respect, all topics are listened to, addressed, or tabled for future consideration. This thread reminds me of that.

[Akash Rastogi]

[IMHO] This depends on the entire team as well as those specific kids who are "falling through the cracks."

It is up to the mentors, teachers, and captains to make sure that everyone in the stands has a role and responsibility. Its not like teams let kids join and don't teach them how to do anything (if there are then they need to change that).

For example, we generally have over 50 people in the stands. There are generally 10 students scouting for matches. Then, there are the multiple alternates we have for each scout. There are also alternates for the scout captains b/c let's face it, scouting isn't the most fun thing in the world. There are students who are there to scout in the pit area and then report back to field scouts. Then there are liaisons who are constantly communicating with the drive team/programming/scout team and also other alliance partners. So as you can see, it really depends on how strong of an organization that team you are talking about really is. The student involvement is not only individual but also communal.

We barely have students not doing anything.

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Joey,
I think it is ok to talk about all the topics in this thread, dancing being one of them. After some time has passed and we are into the lazy hazy days of summertime, this will be a great thread to read and reflect on. Some of the posts on all the topics involved have been great reads with valuable insights, separately and together.

As the thread has developed, the individual topics have become more evident and so we are dealing with several in one thread. And that's ok, so far we are all managing to work with communication. It's a great opportunity to pay attention to everything that is being said. This has happened in team meetings. One topic evolves into 3 or 4 and then everyone is talking and then chaos. But - if handled carefully and with respect, all topics are listened to, addressed, or tabled for future consideration. This thread reminds me of that.

I only said stop talking about the dancing because people seem to be trying to put words into Henry's mouth. He has said he doenst have a problem with dancing multiple times. If people want to talk about dancing, thats fine, however that is not the "big" issue Henry is talking about.
Joey

[MissInformation]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

Can every one just stop talking about the dancing? It is what the thread is about, but not the issue that Henry is talking about.

Joey

When I clicked on this thread to read about it, I was interested in reading about the dancing because that's what the thread is about. Henry's other issue is a tangent in a thread about dancing, so maybe you should be asking a moderator to split the tangent into another thread or start a new thread about it so that people who do not click on this thread because they have no opinion one way or another on dancing at the competitions can decide if they want to discuss the crack fallers. If another thread is started on that subject, I'll comment on it then.

Originally Posted by Henry_222

FIRST regional events have come to the point where I would second guess inviting in a new corporate sponsor to view the competition.

Every job I've had as an adult has had Holiday parties, summer picnics, and other celebratory gatherings for "jobs well done." And we've danced, secretaries, managers, counselors, directors, tech support... we've all danced. I also think of the competitions as a reward for all of the hard work everyone involved with FIRST has done. No, I wouldn't jump on the table during a board meeting and do the Funky Chicken, just as the refs and announcers aren't doing the Funky Chicken during the matches.

Our students have often volunteered to show VIPs around at the VCU competition. There's a wonderful balance between the hard work going on in the pits to the fierce intensity of the matches and the joyful celebration between the matches that has done nothing but impress those VIPs. Over the years I have invited friends of mine to the competitions: a mechanical engineer, a civil engineer, an astronomer, a medical technician, a public relations manager, a computer programmer, etc. Everything about the competitions impressed them, including the dancing. To them, the dancing is a reflection of happiness and enthusiasm, and all of them have remarked that they wished they had something in their lives that inspired so much enthusiasm.

Heidi

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

Kids with no function, that I have seen, generally are out dancing, not paying attention to the competition, hanging out in the arena etc. That does not in any way mean that the kids who dance don't have a function. I am just saying that SOME don't. It is THOSE kids that I am concerned for.

I'm confused. Are you concerned for the dancing kids on other teams? I don't understand how you can know what their "function" on the team is. If you're concerned for the dancing kids on your own team, it seems that you're the one who can best work through that concern. Trying to limit the dance options for kids on other teams doesn't appear to me as an appropriate direction to take.

I can best come to grips with your posts by assuming that you think all teams are made up of the same mix of students as yours, and that you have students on your team that you believe to be nonproductive members. But I'd rather not make that assumption, so I really am still unsure what your main point is.

[henryBsick]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I'm confused. Are you concerned for the dancing kids on other teams? I don't understand how you can know what their "function" on the team is. If you're concerned for the dancing kids on your own team, it seems that you're the one who can best work through that concern. Trying to limit the dance options for kids on other teams doesn't appear to me as an appropriate direction to take.

I can best come to grips with your posts by assuming that you think all teams are made up of the same mix of students as yours, and that you have students on your team that you believe to be nonproductive members. But I'd rather not make that assumption, so I really am still unsure what your main point is.

I do have a lot of thoughts floating around in this thread, it is pretty confusing.
My assumption on the structure of a team is from seeing a few different teams and their similarities in composition.
My concern ultimately lies with these two things:
1)Mass dancing interferes with game play. Time is scheduled into the rules for anything robot related; let it be such.
2)I am afraid there is a growing population of students that have no role on teams. Whether that is the same percentage-per-team multiplied by more teams at regionals now, or just a shear increase in the team size, I believe it is happening.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I do have a lot of thoughts floating around in this thread, it is pretty confusing.
My assumption on the structure of a team is from seeing a few different teams and their similarities in composition.
My concern ultimately lies with these two things:
1)Mass dancing interferes with game play. Time is scheduled into the rules for anything robot related; let it be such.
2)I am afraid there is a growing population of students that have no role on teams. Whether that is the same percentage-per-team multiplied by more teams at regionals now, or just a shear increase in the team size, I believe it is happening.

OK, well, now we have two concerns. I'm not sure the second one is valid, so I'll ignore it in this response.

Now, as to the first concern: If you'll notice, it usually only happens when there is already down time, such as robot cool-down or in a timeout situation. So I'm not sure what the concern is there. If it goes long, then I can see grounds for concern (e.g. if it goes long during the Championship when time is already critical.) But it usually doesn't.

What would you rather have: High schoolers with nothing to do for 6 minutes or those same high schoolers with an activity that might cause the regional to run a little long?

Remember, most of the teams not in the finals have already packed up their robots or are working on it with a designated crew. So there are a lot of people with nothing better to do than dance or cause trouble or what-have-you. Based on your posts, you would rather see them have nothing to do, which could cause problems, which would certainly drive potential sponsors away. I would rather keep them occupied with dancing until the field was ready for matches again.

[Uberbots]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I do have a lot of thoughts floating around in this thread, it is pretty confusing.
My assumption on the structure of a team is from seeing a few different teams and their similarities in composition.
My concern ultimately lies with these two things:
1)Mass dancing interferes with game play. Time is scheduled into the rules for anything robot related; let it be such.
2)I am afraid there is a growing population of students that have no role on teams. Whether that is the same percentage-per-team multiplied by more teams at regionals now, or just a shear increase in the team size, I believe it is happening.

yeah and what we (i think, don't hit me) are saying is that the correlation between the number of people dancing and the number of "no role" students does not exist. What i have noticed is that the kids who genuinely have no role aren't the ones who are dancing, they are the ones who don't even show up to the competition, or sit in the stands with their heads in their hands showing no spirit at all. I think the ones who have no role, and who are uninspired by this program are the ones who are bored at the competitions.

dancing is a part of the competition. if it "interferes" with gameplay, so be it. they wouldnt have the music in the first place if they didnt want that to happen.

[JaneYoung]

ok, here's a story...true story.

My first trip to Atlanta was very exciting. Overwhelming with all the energy, excitement, the fields, the teams, the pits (omg), everything. Wonderful. We were a lot smaller team than we are now and with the pit crew and drive team busy, the team in the stands was very small. And quiet. When the team wasn't competing, the students pulled out books and read. When the team was up, they put down their books and watched. The drive team would signal them to cheer and make noise and it just didn't happen. When the match was over they went back to their books. But - they never missed a match. Not one. They were there, they just didn't want to cheer. Things have changed over the past few years and the team has gotten into cheering and dancing and conga lines but in their own way, I think the quiet ones who read books had just as much fun and were just as involved in the team.

This post doesn't really address anything other than we can't really judge a book by its cover.

[DeAnnaC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP3uwQVN15s

This is a short video of dancing at the St. Louis Regional. I left the audio as is - so you can hear them announcing the match scores at the end of the match, while the teams are dancing.

We were a few minutes ahead on Saturday (how did that happen?) and they had all the mascots down on the field to kill some time..

DeAnna

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by DeAnnaC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP3uwQVN15s

This is a short video of dancing at the St. Louis Regional. I left the audio as is - so you can hear them announcing the match scores at the end of the match, while the teams are dancing.

We were a few minutes ahead on Saturday (how did that happen?) and they had all the mascots down on the field to kill some time..

DeAnna

Thanks for editing this video, DeAnna. Lots of fun to watch.

The audio is good, too. I noticed that dancing frequently took place during field reset, while scores (and sometimes penalty explanations) were being announced.

The Saturday dancing with Fredbird was actually a scheduled activity. Mascots were invited to a special meeting that morning and asked to be ready at 3pm, when Fredbird arrived. Field volunteers, and especially our queueing volunteers, worked hard to keep us on schedule for the mascot dance.