Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?

[Guy Davidson]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

In the early weeks, I feel that bots unable to hurdle will have a larger role, particularly (as just mentioned), as nuisances. Keeping balls away from the effective herders will be ever bit as important (if not more so) than them doing laps.

I think this is where Sean hit the nail on its head, or so to speak. In the early weeks, as always, there will probably be a shortage of robot that work. The speedy bots will have an advantage there, as they are only trying to get a drive train (and maybe a ball knocker) working, so there's probably a higher probability of those bots working well.

As the weeks go on, more and more robots will achieve their full potential, in which case there will be less of a market for lap runners, unless they are extraordinary (see 148, 1519). I know that unless the lap runner is amazing, I'd rather have a backup hurdler in case one breaks, because it can shuttle balls at least as well (presumably having a mechanism to posses balls) and giving us a backup, and an open door to alternate strategies. When you have only two, or even just one hurdler, you're pretty much boxed into a specific robot hurdling. By the later regionals, especially the deep ones (Florida, Finger Lakes, Toronto, Great Lakes come to mind), any strategy flexibility you could get will probably be well worth it.

[waialua359]

Here's more food for thought.
Last year, if the alliance only had 1 ringer scorer, the opposing alliance always had 1 defensive robot on that scorer and in other cases, sometimes 2 of them blocking the scorer.
If an alliance this year only has 1 hurdler, I would strategize against that one robot with one of our alliance bots strictly to make it difficult for them to grab/pick up balls and to shoot/hurdle. Bumping into balls is still great defense. Keeping stationary in their way is still great defense.
The other disadvantage is at end of matches. If the opposing team has two bots placing balls on the overpass at the end of matches, there is no way for that bot to knock off or prevent both balls from staying up on the overpass.

My point is that I think teams definitely need 2 hurdlers and it will be a huge disadvantage if a team only has 1 hurdler that can knock or place balls on the overpass. Most of the lappers that I have seen are built for speed, compact, and manueverable. They wont have ball poppers to knock balls off the overpass. **not talking about the exceptional bots like 217 who is hella fast too**
Most of the posts that i've read agrees that you need at least 2 hurdlers also. I would want the 3rd bot to be a great defensive bot who can knock balls off the overpass with great efficiency. Choosing a speedster would be lower on my list, only because they cant knock balls off the overpass.
Many matches last year were won on bonus points at the end of matches. I dont think this year will be any different.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

I can see robots with very limited sensors passing 1 maybe 2 lines scoring 4 or 8 points. Lets do the math...stop a mad lap bot from multiple laps(16pts per lap)...or sit there and hold them to 4 possibly 8 if you get shoved over. And if they do hit you or any obstacle what are the chances there robot will have sophisticated enough control systems to continue making laps?

Doing nothing or moving a couple feet will be one of the most common significant defensive play this year, and depending on who your facing it will be worth the sacrifice.

(and realize that most speed demon bots are full weight and would hit a bot that most likely is, plus they're geared higher and most likely couldn't push you out of the way.)

It's not an issue or drive torque, weight, or traction. It's an issue of momentum and where they hit you. If they smack the defensive robot on the corner, chances are that they will rotate the defender and continue on their lap-running journey.
Currently, I doubt many (any) lap runners are autonomously advanced enough to correct their journey around the track if they face traffic...but that's what the robocoach is for. Team's with smart robocoaches and signaling methods may be able to avoid traffic or correct their paths. Even if teams haven't incorporated such a system yet, odds are that by later regionals and championships, the top-level lap runners will have.

The defensive move may be viable during early regionals, especially in qualifications. But in scenarios where bot teams have speedy-lap bots, or where the bot capable of defense is capable of removing one or more balls from the overpass, it just doesn't add up.

[waialua359]

Sean,
It looks like we are going to have to sit down together and discuss this after seeing week 1 regionals over pineapples at VCU during week 2 practice match day.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

It's not an issue or drive torque, weight, or traction. It's an issue of momentum and where they hit you. If they smack the defensive robot on the corner, chances are that they will rotate the defender and continue on their lap-running journey.

i never said that the obstructing robot would sit still because it definitely won't hence why bumpers are mandatory, i just don't picture, with or without robocoach help, a team being able to recover well from hitting an obstacle.
i can only envision a few teams being able to pull this off the entire season let alone first few weeks

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field.

Three laps would be really extraordinary! Two laps, though, isn't out of the realm of possibility...

For example, take a look at 1519 - Video of "Speed Racer" in Autonomous.

[banannaman20]

u will be screwed just go around the track a fast as u can

[Donut]

I certainly think and hope there's a place for them this year, our team built their design based on that fact.

What I haven't decided yet is which type of non-hurdling bot will be most effective. Just as there is a shooter vs. arm debate, for non-hurdlers I have the question of whether herders or lap runners will be more important.

Lap runners have the ability to score significant points without a ball just because of their speed and size, and will be the most valuable robots for hybrid if they can avoid collisions. With their maneuverability they are also well suited to play positional defense by parking in front of parts of the overpass to give a hurdler a more difficult time getting to it. On the down side every lap runner I've seen has no way to interact with the trackballs if necessary other than pushing them, and I don't believe I've seen any with ball knock-off mechanisms either.

Herder bots will be larger and although they will probably be designed for speed, their speed advantage won't be nearly as large as the one lap runners will have. Herders can provide lap support for alliances if necessary, but will have a larger impact assisting with the trackballs. The best herders will be able to put up point numbers on par with the better hurdlers when given a trackball, or they can shuttle them around to slower moving hurdler allies for maximum ball points. Herder bots will probably see the defensive role more than any other robot design, playing keep away with the opposing alliance's trackballs and removing balls to negate end bonuses.

I see lap runners working well in offense-oriented alliances, most likely with 2 hurdlers or a herder and hurdler that can handle the balls themselves. There could be an alliance with multiple (or all) lap bots that ignores the trackballs, but this alliance would have to try to win the game in hybrid mode, since they may have trouble scoring in teleop if the opposition slows down the tempo of the game.

Herders will be in the more defensive role, playing nuisance against the opposition while 2 hurdling partners rack up points. There may also be a "hand off" alliance that uses 2 herders to run balls to a single hurdler or an alliance with 1 hurdler, 1 herder, and 1 lap bot, but these will only happen at Regionals with mostly broken hurdlers or if the herder is extremely good at scoring with the trackball (in excess of 36 points).

Regardless of which one plays a bigger role I still see one of them being necessary to the best alliances of this year. With only two trackballs on the field someone has to run laps or defense, and a robot designed for that purpose will be better at it than a hurdler that does it on the side (there will not be a hurdler this year that can outrun lap runners like 148 or 1519, and since most hurdlers capture the ball they will be unable to use their manipulators on the opponent's balls which many herders will be able to do). The only way I see 3 hurdlers performing better is in an extreme hurdling hand off scheme passing balls over the overpass to each other, and from robot designs this year I don't think teams will be able to do that very effectively.

[ALIBI]

What kind of lap times does a lap bot need in order to have a significant advantage over any other? Granted, a small lap bot can fit between places that a 28x38 bot can not, but at the same time, the 28x38 can probably do a little pushing around to make openings where there wasn't one for either bot before. If you had to choose between a star lap bot and a hurdler that can do 5-6 second laps (clear field but in complete control), remove the trackballs and hurdle on the fly, and hurd if needed, which would you choose?

Add to the hurdler removing at least one trackball, possibly two if the opposing alliance is out of the way and crossing at least two or more lines during Hybrid. Does that change your answer?

What would an alliance of three lap bots look like? To me, having three speedsters together would be an awesome site, with a little deffense on the trackballs, I bet they would give a three hurdler alliance a run for their money.

[bobabot1]

Team 2550 got lucky this year and got picked by the second-seed alliance on the 8-1 sweep. Our original design was a forklift but we had a bad crash and decided to just be a lapper/poker. We consistently did 6-7 laps per match.

The only problem we really faced was that unless there were good scouting teams, we would not get chosen for finals (thank you team 488).

As the mantra goes, do one thing and do it well

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by banannaman20

u will be screwed just go around the track a fast as u can

*Clears throat*

I wouldn't say it in those words. Yeah, run laps as fast as you can, but be careful, I saw a lot of robots who were running laps at the speed of light (ahem 102 ) and were doing it well. But then there were "speed demons" who just rammed into every robot they saw in there way. Most of the time these were robots on the same alliance. Such robots, I am glad to say, will be penalized by referees. Too many robots were excessively pushed out of the way during matches and it became a sort of nuisance since bumping is for when someone is in your way for more than a few seconds. However, I did not see the need for some robots to keep ramming poor little robots who were barely in there way for a second. To me, it was totally un-GP and I hope that it does not continue through the weeks.

Other than those things, like someone said above, everyone has something to contribute. When scouting, teams look for the best of the best. This means being fully capable of doing a certain (or multiple) tasks exceptionally well. This is how some beautifully performing alliances are formed.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

We fully intend to have our hurtling up and running for Wisconsin, but at Midwest, where there were a lot of great hurdlers, we could only drive. We could have just simply ran laps with our pretty quick robot, but we chose to play defense. Mind you, we don't defend robots, we defend balls. If a hurdler cannot get to a ball, they cannot hurdle. We ranked 6th not because our alliances could score more points than the opponents, but because we were able to cause the opponents to score less than our alliance. The couple of matches where we opted to not play defense and just run laps - we lost.

Defense cannot win alone, however, as every match we had one decent hurdler on our side.

[waialua359]

As fast as teams that just race around the track are, I thought they had very little impact in the playoffs. Teams that advance in the playoffs were no slouches and the constant hurdling and great auto/hybrid play is what made them successful in advancing.
In other words, a team that could hurdle (scoring 10 points) while crossing underneath the overpass did it much faster than a robot circling around the track 5 times to match it.
It seemed to be more effective on practice day and some matches during qualifying since robots were trying to get their functions to work and qualifying is a random matchup. But as teams pick others during elimination brackets, that's not the case.
No question, they were very fun to watch and the driver's must be having a blast doing it, but the point awarding for such a play is too little.

[George A.]

I have to say, I think that teams that can't hurdle won't be of much use to alliances in the elimination rounds.

That's not to say that the speed demons won't be picked, but they won't do much.

My reasoning for that, is if a team hurdles then goes under the over pass that's 10 points. A lap bot needs 5 laps to accomplish the same thing. (The most in a match at NJ was 9.)

If i were picking an alliance, I'd take 2 really good hurdlers, and 1 somewhat speedy bot with hurdling capability, but not as efficient as the other two. That way in the heat of a match, if one of the main hurdlers' arm breaks, they can do laps while hurdle bot 3 takes over.

[Paul Copioli]

The top three scoring robots at St. Louis:

1. 217 - Averaged 40 points per match and is a hurdler
2. 525 - Averaged 31 points per match and is a hurdler
3. 148 - Averaged 30 points per match and is a racecar.


A top tier racecar will be a better partner than an average hurdler. The regionals will see the top tier race cars doing very well.

The championships will not have 24 top tier hurdlers in each division so I see top tier race cars having a significant impact.

We won St. Louis with pretty darn high scores utilizing only one hurdler and two race cars. While this will not work at Championship, it is very effective at regionals.