week 1: Three Things I've Learned

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Originally Posted by lukevanoort

Check out 00:26 of this video of their robot. They swerve, they just don't do it that often in competition...

Haha, thanks for pointing that out! I hadn't been able to actually look at their robot and came to my conclusion based on a member's previous comments somewhere on here.

(They're usually one of the first teams I look for when I arrive at a comp.)

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Johnson

I attended the Midwest Regional this year and I can say that I was not surprised by the results. I am, however, surprised by three things:

1. The game is VERY boring and anti-climatic.
2. The matches are determined by penalties more often than not.
3. A team can get selected because of their reputation to build amazing robots in the past. (Someone from 16 or 1625, please explain to me why you selected us [648]? I'm grateful that you did, but it's perplexing.)

Personally, I see the matches from the floor, and this is probably as (or more) exciting as the 2006 game(1). The matches are fast, and once people got it figured out nearer the end of the Midwest regional, there were decreasing amounts of penalties, so it seems that they are having a diminishing role(2). Hopefully most teams will have this figured out, but we'll have to see how week 2 goes.

(3) It's true that teams can get selected for reputation, but one thing I noticed at midwest was a lot of rough alliance pairings for seeding matches. I hate to use ourselves as an example, but just to give a sample for some of our alliances, we had one alliance which had one robot that crossed backwards over a line five times almost giving us a negative score. Another time, there were only two robots on the floor for one of our rounds, and the other one on the floor was a drivetrain with no manipulator. I'm not saying we didn't have any good alliances, but the good alliances were the thin minority (we were honored to play with the psychadellic WildStang robot and its octagon of doom (as our team named your gripper)). Anyhow, we ended up 17th by the end of the whole thing as far as seeding goes.

Thankfully, 1114 chose us for their alliance nonetheless. AWESOME playing with you guys!

I love this game! See you at Purdue next!

-q

[Koko Ed]

Every FIRST game will suffer when you have inferior team s on the floor struggling to accomplish simple tasks (like say moving or driving in a straight line). The game right now is in it; very straightforward stage and will start to gain elements of complexity when the "veterans" start taking what they learned in the early regionals and star applying things like defensive strategies so shooters and capable arm bots cannot simply run free and dominate.
The penalty situation reminds me of 2005 whenn a quarter of the field was off limits basically. I remember our team winning a match simply because a very veteran team lost thier heads and blatantly whacked us while we were getting loaded and getting ruined by the 30 point penalty. Fortunately 10 points are not quite as devastating. Teams who smartened up and avoided the penalties did well in 2005 (like us) and teams who continued to make th e same boneheaded mistakes struggled. It'll be the same this year. The rules are there folks, learn them adjust to them, live with them.
As for the level of play it's obvious a good autonomous can make or break a team and make "inferior" arm bot actually useful (I think 1024 is actually an arm bot but they made 1114's job infinitely easier by lapping the field and giving them a nice big fat cushion to do their thing). When you have a pair of good alliances duking it out this game is pretty exciting. Mismatches not so much but tha's wit any game.
I wanna see how it plays when I am at a regional full time (not just for the late elims due to travel issues) but it does seem like this game has an awful lot of potential to be a great one that's for sure.

[Jimmy Cao]

I think I disagree with you with the boring and anticlimactic point. It's not like '06 exciting, but it's not dull either. Some moments were exciting to watch (on the webcast).

However, penalties are too much a part of this game. I feel that many penalties that were given wern't given because they were needed to keep the game fair. Most of the "cross line backward" penalties seemed very nitpicky to me >.>

And... I can't comment on your third point.

[Alex Golec]

1. I find the game mildly entertaining, but that's my own opinion of it - everyone is entitled to their own.

2. Yes, penalties get annoying for just about everyone, but it is a flaw in the game design that requires penalties in order for you to play that game as intended.

3. This is the answer I want to focus on - why pick teams that seem unqualified to play in the eliminations. (One possible) answer: Alliance play is crucial. I'll use my own team's example - we arrived at St. Louis with a good, quick drivetrain and and arm that seemed like it was going to work. After 9 qualifying matches and a couple hundred quick-fixes made by a dozen students and a handful of mentors, the arm still did not work. Yet, we were still picked into the eliminations, and gave our own unique contribution to the alliance - defensive lapping.

Yes, it seemed unexpected, but looking back in ever-perfect hindsight, it seemed planned well from the start. The alliance was built on role-playing, and the little contributions of one team contributed to the overall greater success of the alliance. Every team can provide something in the eliminations.

-Alex Golec

[sgreco]

I don't think the game is boring, but I think teams will get more used to controlling their bots and more used to the strategies needed to win After this happens the game will get more interesting. This game has the potential to be great, keep in mind it is only the first week.

[Jetweb]

If you thinks this game is boring you should watch the eliminations from Midwest. especially semi 2 . I was yelling at my screen and the game play was amazing. i do agree that some of the racing matches were boring but as teems work with there bots you will see less and less of there matches.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jetweb

If you thinks this game is boring you should watch the eliminations from Midwest. especially semi 2 . I was yelling at my screen and the game play was amazing. i do agree that some of the racing matches were boring but as teems work with there bots you will see less and less of there matches.

(I was at Midwest, front and center...)

The shooters are exciting and I admit, I was cheering for everyone to make those hurdles. But the excitement of hurdlers is equalized by the boringness of racing machines. In the previous years it was easy to play defense and teams that could only drive around were able to make the matches exciting because they played defense. The defense in this game is boring. Sure you've got the end game where you can knock off the balls resting on the structure, but what can you do about the shooters and hurdlers that don't place the balls and just keep racking up points? Teams like 1114 were practically indefensible because they could hurdle and, if my interpretations are correct, defending teams can't block them from doing so. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Johnson

The shooters are exciting and I admit, I was cheering for everyone to make those hurdles. But the excitement of hurdlers is equalized by the boringness of racing machines. In the previous years it was easy to play defense and teams that could only drive around were able to make the matches exciting because they played defense. The defense in this game is boring. Sure you've got the end game where you can knock off the balls resting on the structure, but what can you do about the shooters and hurdlers that don't place the balls and just keep racking up points? Teams like 1114 were practically indefensible because they could hurdle and, if my interpretations are correct, defending teams can't block them from doing so. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

I agree, for me this is the main reason why I find this years game so boring. The matches when no one is hurdling are very boring, and the matches when multiple teams are hurdling are boring simply because its the same thing every time they come around the track. People could argue that every other game has a repetitive task, such as shooting balls in 06, or placing ringers in 07, but at least in those games you had to mix up your strategy to make sure you were actually successful against defense. This year you get to do pretty much anything you want and there is nothing the other team can do about it. There is a reason why games like football or soccer have a far greater regular audience than track and field does (besides the olympics). This is my 5th year involved with FIRST, and this is the worst game I've seen yet.

Mike C.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Johnson

The game is VERY boring and anti-climatic.

I cannot disagree more. Once teams figured out how to play the game, it bacame very exciting. I'll agree that the early qualification matches and practice matches looked boring but that (I believe) was because teams weren't sure what strategies would work.

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Johnson

The matches are determined by penalties more often than not.

I'll agree here, but TBH teams need to learn to control their beasts. Driving the wrong way or interaction outside the bumper zone penalties are both avoidable and those are the ones killing alliances.

Originally Posted by Jeremiah JohnsonA

team can get selected because of their reputation to build amazing robots in the past. (Someone from 16 or 1625, please explain to me why you selected us [648]? I'm grateful that you did, but it's perplexing.)

This has always been part of FIRST.

If you cannot "sell" your team and robot strategy to others then you will not be picked. Winning is a habit, and as such teams with winning reputations get picked because of this.

Originally Posted by iCurtis

As for the first point I can't disagree more. I can't recall a game where the audience rose to their feet more often. Every time a ball went over, the roar of the audience at BAE was obvious from the field. Autonomous was essentially a mass of cheering. This is without a doubt the most exciting game I have seen in my 5 years of FRC. BAE's elimination bracket was very even, we had a tie in BOTH semifinals. Balls went up, balls came down it was without a doubt amazing. We were picked by the 7th seed, and won our first match against the 2nd, and the only time I have ever felt more adrenaline during a match was when we won BAE in 2006. I LOVE OVERDRIVE!

We were in that 2nd seeded alliance. You guys were great. Those matches were some of the best, most exciting that I have watched in years. Even from the stands the adrenaline was pumping.

[synth3tk]

I disagree with whomever stated that the webcast made wasn't very exciting. A few of our team members were watching NJ full-screen during our core group meeting. It was pretty awesome. The whole defense thing, however, does make it look boring. I loved the fact that last year when our bot failed to do anything, including drive straight, we had the option of trying to block other bots from scoring, and I believe it worked once or twice, almost had a few ramp climbs.

[CVassos]

Personally, i found the game to be pulse pounding, especially in hybrid mode. Everything was up for grabs. Albeit, this opinion might be founded on the fact that my teams primary focus lapping and occasionally knocking the ball off of the overpass for our alliance partners. But,i could see how watching hurdlers easily rack up points could deflate that feeling.

[George A.]

Boring and anti climactic, maybe. Repetitive? Yes.

I watched pretty much every match at NJ (kinda in my job description)

The qualifiers were hard to get through because it was the same thing over and over again, and the scores never got that high. The elims were a different beast altogether due to the fact that teams were amped up because they knew what was on the line, and the alliances were able to work as a team.

And I agree with the penalties, while there may be a lot this first week, I'm pretty sure that they'll start going down as the weeks progress.

[Paul Copioli]

Defense will be a bigger part of this game than most people realize. We saw hints of this at St. Louis. The eliminatio matches where we scored in the 70s was a combination of Hybrid defense and teleoperated ball defense.

I think this game has a little bit for everyone and is more exciting live than over a webcast. The energy at St. Louis was awesome. The average score after Friday's matches was 38.7 (I lost a bet to my broter on this), which was much higher than I expected.

In FIRST, we the teams are responsible for the use of penalties. We find every loophole to try to beat the game. As a result, the most effective method we leave the game design folks to curb behavior is penalties. If FIRST did not attach penalties to undesired behavior, what would happen?

By the way, have you ever watched your favorite sports when two not-so-good teams were playing? borrring.

Also, the more elegantly designed racecars are exceptional to watch. The judges, referees, and crowd favorite was 148. A racecar that is beyond words exceptional. They are extremely hard to stop and are enjoyable to watch. They are elegance in motion.

This is the best week 1 year in a really long time (at least, at St. Louis). Week 5 will be really interesting and the Championship will even be better.

For those of you who have not seen this game live, please wait until you do to pass judgment.

[petek]

I mostly agree with George on this one. Far too many of the matches were decided by one minute into the teleoperated period or by penalties. By Saturday morning things did improve somewhat with more heads-up play at the overpass (placing and removing balls) brought in some end-game excitement.

It would have been even better if fewer matches were decided by penalties. So many times a team would spend a quarter of the match getting around the field and hurdling, only to waste that effort in the next quadrant with a line incursion while trying to recapture the ball or get around a traffic jam.

One thing I really like about this year's game is the variety of scoring methods in play: IMHO the matches that had racebots (102's Orion proved that just doing laps can be very exciting), arm hurdlers and catapults mixing it up were a blast to watch. The only ones I found tedious were those with just lapping going on. I was surprised that so few made a consistent effort to herd balls while lapping. Many threw away easy scoring opportunities by dodging around their own ball on their home stretch instead of giving it a punt across the line. I hope we see much more heads-up play in the coming weeks.