Improving Officiating at FIRST Events

[George A.]

I know what you mean about being completely baffled as to what a penalty was called on.

While I know this isn't the case everywhere but I know at least at the regionals I announce at, when the head ref gives the scorer the penalties, I makes sure I get the team numbers and the penalties, and announce those when the score is put up.

Like I said, I know this doesn't happen everywhere, but I think it helps the teams at the event.

[BenB]

Originally Posted by George A.

I know what you mean about being completely baffled as to what a penalty was called on.

While I know this isn't the case everywhere but I know at least at the regionals I announce at, when the head ref gives the scorer the penalties, I makes sure I get the team numbers and the penalties, and announce those when the score is put up.

Like I said, I know this doesn't happen everywhere, but I think it helps the teams at the event.

I think its really important to know where the calls are coming from, its really good of you to do your best to let the teams know this. I hope the game annoucers at Waterloo and GTR will be doing the same.

I can see how upseting it would be thinking you won a match and then ending up loosing due to penalties and from a teams point of view, the reffing would upset me because of that. However, I'm sure the refs do their best to make the calls and theres a lot of action going on on the field.

It takes several referies to make the penalties so I can see how easy it would be for one person, who is most likely focusing on their robot to miss the call. This leads to those people feeling like their getting penalties for nothing.

Again, having the penalties annouced makes everyone lives so much easier. Teams know where the penalties are coming from and can use that to improve themselves, or make clear, supported, constructive critism.

The only comment Im going to make it how I completely agree this point made by sumadin.

Originally Posted by sumadin

Perhaps (for next year and the years to follow) the solution is a digital system of some sorts, that gives the refs the list of teams for each match, and the few most common penalties, and allows the ref to use that to track penalties.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by George A.

I know what you mean about being completely baffled as to what a penalty was called on.

While I know this isn't the case everywhere but I know at least at the regionals I announce at, when the head ref gives the scorer the penalties, I makes sure I get the team numbers and the penalties, and announce those when the score is put up.

Like I said, I know this doesn't happen everywhere, but I think it helps the teams at the event.

George, we haven't met before but I do know your reputation as a great announcer. I think announcing penalties is an important part of keeping the audience, and the participants, engaged in the competition. How can people be inspired if they don't know what's going on?

We try hard to get all penalties announced at the St. Louis regional, too. In some complex cases, we have the Head Ref explain the penalty personally, but most of the time he relays it to our game announcer.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Richard

George, we haven't met before but I do know your reputation as a great announcer. I think announcing penalties is an important part of keeping the audience, and the participants, engaged in the competition. How can people be inspired if they don't know what's going on?

We try hard to get all penalties announced at the St. Louis regional, too. In some complex cases, we have the Head Ref explain the penalty personally, but most of the time he relays it to our game announcer.

At BAE GSR starting on Friday, they were announcing what the penalties were and which team it was on. This made things easier to understand.

[Matt H.]

I'm going to have to agree that announcing penalties is a must. It is very annoying (as a spectator) to see a close match change hands for no apparent reason.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by George A.

I know what you mean about being completely baffled as to what a penalty was called on.

While I know this isn't the case everywhere but I know at least at the regionals I announce at, when the head ref gives the scorer the penalties, I makes sure I get the team numbers and the penalties, and announce those when the score is put up.

Like I said, I know this doesn't happen everywhere, but I think it helps the teams at the event.

George, I know you did an awesome job at relaying the messages but sometimes that info gets misconstrued.
And the messenger gets blamed sometimes.
How's that old saying go? "Don't blame the messenger." lol

Maybe to remedy this, we can take one of the good aspects of professional sports, and have the microphone handed over to the actual (head?) referee (like in NFL games) to explain why the penalty was incurred, and to exactly who?

For example, the microphone gets handed to the referee and he says "10 pt penalty, team xxx, for rule xxx" and then the actual referee can explain it since they made the actual decision.

Then if a team wanted to contest that ruling, standard operator only interactions with referees (not team coaches) would then be followed.

Just a thought to remedy at least one of Madison's issues she brings up.

[Brandon Holley]

This topic has been beaten dead time and time again, but it always seems to come back doesn't it ?

I agree that officiating at FIRST events should be top notch, but the referees are human, and they are bound to make mistakes. However, this is not a valid excuse for a good amount of circumstances.

In my opinion this is the most complicated FIRST game yet, from a referees stand point. Week 1 is week 1....everyone is learning how the game is played, including the referees. I expect aiden will be all over how referees handle the game. FIRST definitely stepped it up this year on teh reffing stand point. I think in the coming weeks we will see things improve.


As for what happens if a discrepancy occurs......teams, you must do your best to be as GP as possible when confronting a referee. Wait for them to be finished with whatever they are doing and then ask them politely what your team was penalized for. If you do not understand, ask them why it was called, I'm sure they will have a good answer. If you still do not agree with them, as much as it sucks, you have to walk away. You are not going to do ANYTHING by arguing with a FIRST referee. You are most likely going to make your team look bad in the process. If you truly have a concern about what happened on the field ask the referee to continue the conversation during a period where they have down time. They are not going to overturn their decision, but maybe you can learn a little about their swagger from the situation.

I am all for improved officiating, but lets give them another week before we gather the pitch forks and torches....

[George A.]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Maybe to remedy this, we can take one of the good aspects of professional sports, and have the microphone handed over to the actual (head?) referee (like in NFL games) to explain why the penalty was incurred, and to exactly who?

For example, the microphone gets handed to the referee and he says "10 pt penalty, team xxx, for rule xxx" and then the actual referee can explain it since they made the actual decision.

Then if a team wanted to contest that ruling, standard operator only interactions with referees (not team coaches) would then be followed.

Just a thought to remedy at least one of Madison's issues she brings up.

I really like this idea, go straight to the source for the information. It would actually be easier than people think. Right next to the scorer is a microphone, theoretically they could tell the scorer and the crowd the penalties at the same time, and then the score is revealed.

I've seen Sonny (the head ref in Philly) do this the past couple of years, and IMO it works out really well.

[JHSmentor]

As a mentor for a rookie team, I must say that I was very overwhelmed and at the same time very impressed by the whole process - including the officiating. I have not other reference to go by for robotics but I hvae been playing sports all my life.

We were at the Oregon Regional that Team 488 attended - we had many questions as well for what was going on with the penalties. I totally agree with the idea of having a ref call out the penalty at the end of the match so that the team can come discuss it if they desire. But, in most cases, when we got a penalty we pretty much knew what it was for due the position of our robot on the field and the dynamics associated with the play. You then had to argue your case if you thought it was not appropriate. We got caught with the "interferring with a hurdler" when playing defense to slow them down (staying in front of them) which, in our interpretation should be legal since they just need to bump us to ask us to move. But any contact at all caused a penalty. In any case, once we found out how they were calling it, we changed our strategy (even though I still disagreed with the calls).

Another one to watch out for is backing up over a line. It seems that ANY part of the robot that crosses the line is construed as backing up and was penalized. Not really the intent of the rule by my estimation if you are just turning your robot and a part happens to cross over or if you run into the post and back up to reposition the bot.

In any case, part of the game is figuring our how they make the calls and adjusting for them. Any sport is this way and this should be no exception.

one sugestion would be to have the refs clearly give some examples before any matches start to illustrate how calls will be made during play for each rules. Knowing the written rule and seeing it in action can be very different things.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JHSmentor

In any case, part of the game is figuring our how they make the calls and adjusting for them. Any sport is this way and this should be no exception.

Very true. I played soccer with my college soccer club and we played every team twice. Now there was one team that had fairly permissive refs at their home field. They still had a yellow card for rough play. I figured that they had a rude awakening the next week, when they came to our home field. I knew how the local refs called the games--rough play was not on their "easy on this" list! Sure enough, the other team drew three or four yellows during the game. They didn't adapt well enough. (The "local" refs for my club didn't play "no harm no foul", they played "foul is foul".)

Another set of refs liked using their cards. We soon learned not to say anything to them...even though we normally didn't.

So find out how the refs are going to call something, and then play so you don't get a penalty intentionally. But live with it if you do get a penalty.

[whytheheckme]

The reffing at BAE GSR was excellent. After each match, it was announced what each penalty was, and what team it was against. The white challenge box was responded to promptly by the head ref, who did an excellent job explaining what had happened. Communication seemed excellent, and the head ref did wonderful job.

While we have suffered some major reffing problems in the past, I must say, BAE GSR '08 was the fairest competition I have ever been to in my 4 years in FIRST.

[waialua359]

The point made that just because its week 1, doesnt mean that the rules understanding by everyone, including referees and its consistency is a "learning process" is an excellent point! Its not fair for any team who competes during week 1.
Thus, the original point by Madison for a more complete training and understanding of rules prior to competition, I believe, is a way to improve the "issues" at regionals, especially during week 1.

The other suggestion on demonstrating how penalties can occur is a great way to validate what the rule book says. Sometimes, teams read the rules over and over again, only to misunderstand/misinterpret "how" the penalty can occur. I've seen this done from time to time at certain regionals, year to year. Maybe it should be done every year, especially for rookie teams.
As a rookie or even for us, so much is happening so fast that sometimes you miss things here and there.

Example
In NJ last year, ringers placed did not count on the bottom portion of the rack if it touched another ringer laying flat on the ground. I asked what the rationale was? One referee said that the ringer placed was "aided" by the ringer on the floor. We ended up spending time during future matches to move the opposing teams ringer laying there in order to ensure ours hanging counted.
Later, they changed the rule. I then asked why the rule change from a different referee. That person didn't even know what I was talking about and said it was fine.
The moral of the story here is that (I cant quote the exact rule from last year so I am not sure) is that the ringer could not be aided by something else to be counted as a score. The referee, another referee, and myself all had different interpretations of the rule/situation.
Visual examples makes it clear for the audience, the participants, and even the referees.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by waialua359

The point made that just because its week 1, doesnt mean that the rules understanding by everyone, including referees and its consistency is a "learning process" is an excellent point! Its not fair for any team who competes during week 1.
Thus, the original point by Madison for a more complete training and understanding of rules prior to competition, I believe, is a way to improve the "issues" at regionals, especially during week 1.

Listen,

If a referee or umpire is trained for the NFL or MLB or you name it they can go back and look at "tape" and be trained with the aid of prior game's. Are you going to show the referees in training weeks before the regionals begin tape of 2008's game "FIRST Overdrive"????? The answer is obviously no.

Unfortunately with FIRST there is going to be a learning curve REGARDLESS of what happens. Regardless of what happens, at week 1 regionals, the refs are seeing the game played for the first time too. As much as this sucks, it is FIRST and its why we need to sometimes make sure we aren't overreacting.

Even if the referee knows the rulebook through and through, its very easy to miss a call or to call something that is borderline....

I'm in no way condoning poor officiating, but I do see how hard the job is that these people do....and its a job they are not being paid to do...

[Corey Balint]

I said it once before and I'll say it again. They need to make a video showing certain situations that violate rules and ones that do not. While you can not cover all situations, if you get enough situationsout there, most refs will be able to follow what the rules are intended for accurately.

And Elgin. I love that idea. A lot of people tend to ignore what the announcer says after a match (no offense announcers, many people are not paying attention at that point because they are doing other things/the music is too loud to hear you.) It should just be the Ref's voice only stating why it happened.

[Michael Corsetto]

I agree that making the penalties called in any given match announced to the public, and to the teams competing more specifically, is important. I remember back in 2005 at the Silicon Valley Regional when one of the dreaded 30 point penalties was called against an alliance going up against 254 and company in the finals. It was a close call for whatever reason (I can't remember the details, I'm pretty sure there is a thread somewhere on CD about it) but the crowd was very upset with call, even booing. Probably one of the biggest displays of negativity at a FIRST event could have been avoided if the penalty was clearly announced to the crowd and all controversiality regarding the call explained.

Also, as driver for my last 2 years on team 114, and human player the two years before that, we made a point of walking into the challenge square, or whatever its called, not to argue penalties, but just to find out what we did. I even remember waiting in line once or twice to talk to the head ref. Simply announcing the penalties would alleviate this problem and make for a smoother event.

In any case, thank you ref's, and all of the other volunteers, for making FIRST possible. I hope improvement can be made, just have they have been (penalty flags, yellow cards, etc.), since I will probably be refereeing next year

Mike C.