Go to Post I'm sure someone somewhere worked [I]really hard[/I] on this and I congratulate them for the attempt. Unfortunately, its one of those things that should be taken down and recorded in the company journal as a bad idea. - Katie_UPS [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:06
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,941
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Well 148 is neither a shooter nor an arm and it went undefeated at St. Louis.
And 121 dominated BAE.
So I don't think it's fair to say if it's not a shooter it's worthless junk. In fact to assume that is just bad scouting in my opinion.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:08
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
TSIMFD
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,634
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgreco27 View Post
Has anyone else noticed that shooters dominate?
Really? Based on the winning alliances in Oregon, St. Louis, and New Hampshire I'd think arms had a pretty good weekend as well. So far very few teams have "dominated". 1114 is typically agreed on as the best machine, but even they lost twice in qualifications, and encountered some trouble with the #2 ranked alliance in the semi-finals. 103 was as close as any individual team I saw came to dominating the competition, but they are the exception rather than the rule, and it would have been interesting to see how they would have done in Chicago.
Ultimately it comes down to your overall speed in every mechanism, not just the mechanism used to hurdle. The teams that are up near the top are not only hurdling quickly (which many arms can do), but also getting around the field quickly, removing the ball form the overpass quickly, and acquiring the ball quickly.
__________________
Being correct doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:11
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,941
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Really? Based on the winning alliances in Oregon, St. Louis, and New Hampshire I'd think arms had a pretty good weekend as well. So far very few teams have "dominated". 1114 is typically agreed on as the best machine, but even they lost twice in qualifications, and encountered some trouble with the #2 ranked alliance in the semi-finals. 103 was as close as any individual team I saw came to dominating the competition, but they are the exception rather than the rule, and it would have been interesting to see how they would have done in Chicago.
Ultimately it comes down to your overall speed in every mechanism, not just the mechanism used to hurdle. The teams that are up near the top are not only hurdling quickly (which many arms can do), but also getting around the field quickly, removing the ball form the overpass quickly, and acquiring the ball quickly.
And having a very effective Hybrid mode. 1024 and 1114 were a deadly Hybrid combination.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:16
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
Registered User
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,187
Tom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
Well 148 is neither a shooter nor an arm and it went undefeated at St. Louis.
And 121 dominated BAE.
So I don't think it's fair to say if it's not a shooter it's worthless junk. In fact to assume that is just bad scouting in my opinion.
Comparing a high school track star and an Olympic sprinter would also be bad scouting. It simply isn't fair.

'Arm bots' aren't worthless junk, but it would be interesting to see some of these teams mentioned in this thread play head to head. The level of play at the Midwest regional was pretty much double (IMHO) that of any other week 1 regional. The dominant teams at MWR seemed to all be 'shooters', with the exception of 33. But... as said many times before, there will be a handful of great robots, some shooters, some with arms.

I'd pick a winning strategy over sheer force any day. It seems 148 chose the same at St. Louis, but only time will tell if it can hold.
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:18
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,812
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
And having a very effective Hybrid mode. 1024 and 1114 were a deadly Hybrid combination.
148 and 217 as well.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:24
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,066
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri View Post
The dominant teams at MWR seemed to all be 'shooters', with the exception of 33. But... as said many times before, there will be a handful of great robots, some shooters, some with arms.
Who were the finalists at MWR? 111 and 1243 both have arms (I can't recall their other team not because they were inferior but because I know both these teams from other experiences)

Both types of teams have a place in this competition, I have a hunch that arms are going to get better in the coming weeks as drivers get more used to gaging their depth on the field. Also I am sure the reflections on the field didn't help much. It will be interesting to watch and see if maybe shooters hit their high point to soon in the season. Truth be told, I don't feel either can dominate the other.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 18:37
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
Registered User
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,187
Tom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien1247 View Post
Who were the finalists at MWR? 111 and 1243 both have arms (I can't recall their other team not because they were inferior but because I know both these teams from other experiences)
I believe I was trying to make the same point as you?

I just dont think saying "Oh man look only 2/5 regionals were won by shooters in week one! Arms must be the best!!!11!!!" is a very smart thing to do. Its week 1... things change.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 19:12
Dan Petrovic's Avatar
Dan Petrovic Dan Petrovic is offline
Got my degree and ready for more!
FRC #0166 (Chop Shop)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Merrimack NH
Posts: 1,668
Dan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Of the four shooters that were at GSR, none of them made it to the semi-finals.

I really like the point about 1114, 16, 71, and 1024 and how they are always good. I bet those four teams could have built arm/lift robots that dominated.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
The sign applause was definately one of the best moments I had ever witnessed at a FIRST event.
Who knew silence could be so loud?

Mayhem in Merrimack hosts: 2005-2016 - Week Zero hosts in partnership with FIRST HQ: 2014-2016
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 19:12
TheOtherGuy's Avatar
TheOtherGuy TheOtherGuy is offline
Unregistered User
AKA: Kevin Forbes
FRC #4183 (Bit Buckets)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 408
TheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond reputeTheOtherGuy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

I'll say this: shooters are doing good, arms are doing good. IMHO, shooters are doing better, I just don't know the quality of the shooters at regionals other than NJ and Midwest.

By far, shooters are the most fun to watch (at least on the webcast)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 19:19
Matt H. Matt H. is offline
Long Distance Mentor
FRC #1726 (N.E.R.D.S.)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
Posts: 238
Matt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond reputeMatt H. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

I'm going to have to say that this first week may have been misleading in showing the true strengths of robots. It is tempting to say that shooters dominate, but I think that a better statement would be that well built robots dominate. Watching the New Jersey regional I think that there are several very well designed arm bots that can score as fast a shooter.
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 19:20
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,941
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy View Post
I'll say this: shooters are doing good, arms are doing good. IMHO, shooters are doing better, I just don't know the quality of the shooters at regionals other than NJ and Midwest.

By far, shooters are the most fun to watch (at least on the webcast)
Good working robots are more fun to watch. That's why the elims are where the event really comes alive.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 19:23
sayso_411's Avatar
sayso_411 sayso_411 is offline
10 Years of Sparky!
AKA: Shaav
FRC #0384 (Sparky)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 101
sayso_411 can only hope to improve
Re: Shooters

Yup i dont think its fair to say that shooters dominate (although Sparky and Blue Cheddar are pure shooters) Its all about timing, talent and luck

Wish us luck,
VCU Regional [next weekend]
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 19:28
Jonathan Norris Jonathan Norris is offline
Jno
FRC #0610 (Crescent Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,081
Jonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtengineering View Post
The only truly dominant shooter I have seen so far is 1114 (although there may be other examples that is all I have seen) and I would hardly call their elegant and effective solution to the hurdling problem simple. Effective, yes, elegant, yes, but not simple.
I would have to argue that, when you compare this year's bot to every other bot they have produce it is by far the simplest bot they have ever built, no amazing box stacker, no platform climbing crab drive with hanging arm, no double jointed arm, no tank drive poof ball shooter, and no folding ramp with a 4-bar arm that fit within 4" (or something ridiculous like that). I would say their '06 bot was fairly simple, but when you look at their mechanism this year its what, a single joint with a roller manipulator and a 'punch' kicker (its pretty simple mechanism), I would say their bot is a very simple solution to this year's game. When you compare it to what a lot of the other 'top' teams came out with looks fairly darn simple to me, maybe its just the machining quality that makes it look more complex then it is.
__________________
Co-Founder of Taplytics.com
2013 World Champions (1241, 1477, 610)
Crescent Robotics Team 610 Mentor
K-Botics Team 2809 Founding Mentor ('09-'11)
Queen's University Mechanical Engineering, Applied Science '11

Crescent Robotics Team 610 Alumni

Last edited by Jonathan Norris : 02-03-2008 at 20:03.
Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 20:11
Dad1279 Dad1279 is offline
Registered User
FRC #1279 (Cold Fusion)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 511
Dad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud ofDad1279 has much to be proud of
Re: Shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefro526 View Post
.....
The only real shooters in NJ were 103 and 25
......
I can think of at least one more
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-03-2008, 21:06
lukevanoort lukevanoort is offline
in between teams
AKA: Luke Van Oort
no team
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,873
lukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to lukevanoort
Re: Shooters

I think we can all agree on this: exceptional robots do exceptionally. Yes, 33 has an amazing arm bot that can score really fast, and yes, 1114 can hurdle at a blistering pace. The same goes for 111, 16, 25, 103, 1625, 71, and so on. You could go tit-for-tat for days citing good arms and good shooters and never reach a conclusion over which is the superior design. The only real conclusion you could ever reach by looking at specific robots is that you need a good robot to have a good robot. Duh!

On a purely theory based level with all other things being equal, I think shooters do have a higher upper bound on their hurdling rate than arms - most shooters can save time by not stopping. Arms are clearly more versatile than shooters; it may be possible for some shooters to fire a low-powered shot onto the overpass, but I highly doubt such a strategy will have anywhere near the placing reliability that a decent arm does.

Regardless of the hurdling method used, it is clear that the biggest determinant in a given robot design's effectiveness in this game is its ability to acquire the ball reliably. You can have the most amazing arm/shooter in the world, but if you can't get the ball to it, it is useless. I imagine that, in many cases, this is where shooters fall short. Many of the average and below-average arms fall short here too. All the good hurdlers have mastered acquiring the ball, and that is really what matters in this game, not whether the robot is a shooter or an arm bot.

For the record, my team's robot is both (if we get the shooting portion to work properly).
__________________
Team 1219: 2009 - Mentor
Team 587: 2005 - Animator, 2006-2008 - Team Captain

Last edited by lukevanoort : 02-03-2008 at 21:09.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shooters vs Arms ggoldman Rules/Strategy 102 03-03-2008 19:54
My comments on shooters Woody1458 General Forum 54 26-02-2008 21:27
Horizontal Shooters Sachiel7 Technical Discussion 10 24-02-2006 08:12
2 Shooters??? Jon Jack Robot Showcase 14 26-01-2006 20:00
Pure Shooters Andrew Rudolph General Forum 5 04-03-2002 20:53


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi