First CROSSING not being scored?

[jgannon]

I was just talking to Karthik, and he brought up a totally mind-blowing idea about how scoring for this game works. This seems really dumb, but so basic that I can't believe it hasn't been asked here or on the Q&A. The way that we read <G06> and <G07> tells me that if a robot does not move in hybrid, and then crosses the finish line at the start of teleop, they should receive two points. There is no equivalent of <G12> for robots. After reviewing some videos (team 648 crosses the line at 00:17, and blue receives no points here... this is not an isolated incident), I have determined that the scoring system is not scoring this correctly. This is a HUGE deal, and has already potentially affected the outcomes of matches this past weekend. Am I reading these rules funny? Is there any hope that the scoring system can be corrected in time for week 2?

EDIT: Since there don't appear to be any glaring holes in my logic, I have posted a Q&A to bring this issue to FIRST's attention. Hopefully we will hear the official word before this weekend.

[JesseK]

There are a couple of scenarios here, so let's start with a case statement that might help us narrow what's going on:

There was a team and the Midwest or NJ regional that managed 6 line crosses in hybrid mode. I'm curious as to if that team received an additional 2 points for crossing their finish line the 2nd time. I don't remember who it was, nor did I see it but I do remember hearing the announcer saying it.

If the team didn't receive 2 more points, then it seems the GDC has a hole in their rules that needs clarification. The scoring system either ignored the lap or the IR sensor is set to only activate in TELEOP mode, at which point it would seem bots that never moved in HYBRID mode should receive the initial 2 points.

If that team did get the additional 2 points then it seems like it's actually an implementation change that would have to occur since it would appear that the IR lap counter is simply set to ignore the first hit.

This first hit could also be an "I'm alive" message so the IR lap counting system can initialize with the proper IR receivers. If THIS is the case then it would be very difficult to change it to allow bots to score a lap on the first pass in TELEOP if they never made it past the overpass in HYBRID.

[hipsterjr]

Jesse, this seems to be a very valid point. Please let us know as soon as you hear from the Q&A.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by jgannon

I was just talking to Karthik, and he brought up a totally mind-blowing idea about how scoring for this game works. This seems really dumb, but so basic that I can't believe it hasn't been asked here or on the Q&A. The way that we read <G06> and <G07> tells me that if a robot does not move in hybrid, and then crosses the finish line at the start of teleop, they should receive two points. There is no equivalent of <G12> for robots.

I was thinking of this as a tradeoff in evaluating hybrid strategies, basically looking at the 1st and 5th lines as 2pts net (4 (hybrid) - 2 (tele)). If it is true that the first cross of the finish line doesn't count for 2 pts then this changes that evaluation. If you crossed the finish line in hybrid then does it count the first cross in tele?

[Graham Donaldson]

My opinion (and I haven't read the rules, and I'm not going to get into technicalities) is that you should not get credit for a lap the first time you cross your finish line. Yes, you should get the points for crossing it in hybrid, but if you cross it for the first time in teleop, have you completed a lap? No. You've done a quarter of a lap. You shouldn't get the points. Now, if you do five lines in hybrid (earning four points for each line), you should probably also get the points for doing a lap. I don't remember if this happened at Jersey, and therefore don't know how the scoring system treated it, but...

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by robotcanuck1676

My opinion (and I haven't read the rules, and I'm not going to get into technicalities) is that you should not get credit for a lap the first time you cross your finish line.

What people think the rules should be isn't doing anybody any good at this point. Please read the rules, and then you'll be able to add something to the discussion.

Originally Posted by robotcanuck1676

have you completed a lap?

The rules never say anything about "completing a lap". All discussion in the scoring is about "CROSSING your own FINISH LINE". Unless you can lawyer out something to the contrary, the rules are very clear that you should receive two points for the first time you CROSS your own FINISH LINE in teleop mode.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by robotcanuck1676

(and I haven't read the rules, and I'm not going to get into technicalities)

I'm not sure I understand this...if we don't read the rules and do our best to understand them, how can we discuss them and hope to make any sense? (I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just confused - I've guess I've spent too many days buried in the manual lately...)

[Guy Davidson]

Looking at G06 and G07, it seems that if a robot does not move in Hybrid, it should be credited with two points the first time it crosses its finish line:

<G06> During the TELEOPERATED PERIOD, a ROBOT will earn 2 points each time it CROSSES its FINISH LINE.

<G07> A ROBOT that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.

Seeing as the robot hasn't crossed its own finish line yet, it doesn't need to cross the opponent's finish line before crossing its own.

[hipsterjr]

FTW

Originally Posted by sumadin

Looking at G06 and G07, it seems that if a robot does not move in Hybrid, it should be credited with two points the first time it crosses its finish line:

<G06> During the TELEOPERATED PERIOD, a ROBOT will earn 2 points each time it CROSSES its FINISH LINE.

<G07> A ROBOT that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.

Seeing as the robot hasn't crossed its own finish line yet, it doesn't need to cross the opponent's finish line before crossing its own.

This seems as clear as it can be put. So the question is: Will they count the first crossing as a lap?

[Graham Donaldson]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I'm not sure I understand this...if we don't read the rules and do our best to understand them, how can we discuss them and hope to make any sense? (I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just confused - I've guess I've spent too many days buried in the manual lately...)

[EDIT]I don't mean for this to be read in a scathing tone; rather, more of a calm, explanatory one[/EDIT]

My point was, Jane, as others have said in various rule discussions, that I was not going to nitpick through the rules and try and interpret every last word and every last technicality, but rather go with what, as I interpreted, was the spirit of the rule. I was going off simple, common, sense, and just throwing the argument out there.

And this is what my point boils down to: The robot (provided it is crossing the finish line for the first time in teleop after not moving during hybrid) has not completed a full lap. The points given, as discussed in the animation and in the on-field play (both of which I understand are not official rule interpretations), are awarded for completing a lap. If the robot has not completed a lap, the robot does not earn the points. Mistake or not, the IR system has reflected this viewpoint at all the regionals I have heard about. Granted, I was at NJ, so I didn't watch any others, but I have not seen anyone saying "It was counted as a lap at XXX Regional", so I'm assuming it was universal (that the first crossing of the finish line didn't count as a lap).

Take my comments as you will. Be offended by them, criticize me for not citing rules, take them as a valid viewpoint- do with them as you will. My disclaimer is that it's my opinion, and what to me would be common sense.

[Betty_Krocker]

yeah, this is a very valid point. most of the matches that i have seen, have boiled down to two things, penalties and laps completed (scored rather). i have seen a lot of matches where is has been won or loss by 10 points (a penalty) or 2 -4 points (a couple of laps), this point takes the game and kinda turns it on its head...

[Mike o.]

Taking into accoint what the rules say and the typical intent that FIRST has witht heir rules, that whenever a robot crosses it's own finish line it should receive 2 points. Even if the robot did not move during hybrid, allowing a robot to score 2 points after crossing their finish line initially gives a Rookie Team the chance to atleast score 2 points. I think that this is somwthing that the GDC needs to address and get fixed either by fixing the system or telling us why it is correct the way it is as of now.

Just my 2cents

[Mark McLeod]

Rule interpretations not withstanding, allowing the first line crossing to count in teleop mode will lessen the significance of crossing the line in hybrid for those programming rookies.

They need all the encouragement via scoring we can give them, so that after a first step this year they'll be better prepared for future autonomous/hybrid games. Putting a toe in the water is the hardest thing to get them to do.

Every game design should be a means to an end.

[Justin Montois]

I think the scoring should stay as is. You get two points per lap,moving 27 feet should not count as a lap and should be scored accordingly. Especially now after week one, it's not fair to those teams to change it. I think the best thing FIRST can do is point this out in an E-Mail blast just so all teams are aware and can adjust their Hybrid strategy accordingly.

[martin417]

This thread sounds like a bunch of liberals! "I think..." and "I feel..." The rules are published at the kick-off, and are (and should be) gospel. These rules are used throughout the build as a basis for design and strategy. There should be nothing open to interpretations and feelings.

The rules <G06> clearly state that during tele-op, every time a robot crosses its own finish line it receives 2 points, and <G07> if a robot has crossed it's own finish line, it must cross the opponents' finish line before it can score again.

There is no "interpretation" about this rule, and no mention of completing a lap. At the start of tele-op, if a robot did not move during hybrid, it has not crossed its own finish line, therefore it should receive 2 points.

Teams should not have to analyze the "spirit" of every rule to try and figure out what the framers meant, or they would not be able to design anything. Changing the rule or "interpreting" it would penalize teams that developed a design and a strategy based on those rules.

My 2 cents.