Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid

[Derek Bessette]

I TOLD YOU SO!!! Wait, I was wrong wasn't I?

I guess our fix-it window plans have changed.

If my interpretation is right, this would not only be a yellow card offence but would earn the alliance a 10 pt penalty for impeding.

Of course I've been wrong before. Just read by previous post in this thread, watch match 13 at the MWR or talk to my wife.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Derek Bessette

If my interpretation is right, this would not only be a yellow card offence but would earn the alliance a 10 pt penalty for impeding.

I don't think so, Derek. I think the necessity of "bump to pass" and "6 seconds" would still apply before a 10-point penalty would be applied. Since that was the intent of last week's update - to remove the penalty in Hybrid when the robot couldn't respond to a bump - I would think there would be no penalty in the home stretch either. The Yellow Card is for going against the spirit of the game. Or as we say in soccer (*), for bringing the game into disrepute.

Of course, I thought the "move 3 feet" strategy was legal as long as the whole width of the track wasn't blocked. I guess I can be wrong too.

* - who is the soccer ref on the GDC? Yellow and red cards last year, impeding this year. Maybe we'll see prohibitions against deliberate handling in some future game - or penalty kicks.

[Mike Harrison]

Just because a team blocks in auton doesn't mean they aren't GP or they aren't playing by the rules or spirit of the game, it just means that defense is their strategy. When John Abele says we should push ourselves to excel and not drag down our opponents, i don't think that he's saying, "defense is not GP" or "if your strategy is defense, you are unsportsmanlike", it means it in a bigger sense, like helping other teams out in their pit or numerous other things that are bigger than the competitions themselves

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Of course, I thought the "move 3 feet" strategy was legal as long as the whole width of the track wasn't blocked. I guess I can be wrong too.

I'm not too sure about the distinction between "illegal" and "will receive a yellow card". It sounds like moving to get in the way and stopping is still legal according to the letter of the rules, but it has been explicitly declared to be against the spirit of the rules. So it looks like yellow cards are given for "undesireable" behavior; "illegal" behavior is apparently still associated with point penalties.

I'm surprised by this update, but I understand it and I accept it wholeheartedly. (This is in contrast to the 1519 decision, which I do not understand and which I accept only grudgingly.)

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Its just nice to see people who designed to play the game the right way .

I think that perhaps the phrase "designed to play the game the right way" is a bit overzealous.

We have to remember that we have many teams that don't have the resources in either EXPERIENCE, mentors, or money to do what some of the other teams do.

I would never tell a team that was trying to block when it was fully within the rules as we knew them, that they were doing things the WRONG way.

Last year, the spirit of the game was to try and get as many rings on as possible so was playing defense the :"WRONG WAY" to play the game.

I believe that in most games, the spirit and intent of the game is to score as many points as possible... so does that mean that defensive players are playing the game the wrong way?

In FIRST, as in life, there is no WRONG WAY to do anything... when you play within the rules and you do your best you are playing the RIGHT way.

The rules have changed now... so yes teams that used a simple autonomous command to travel a few feet will now have to write one that goes further..

If the RIGHT WAY to play the game is to out score your opponent by many points .... then why are the tie-breakers about keeping the games close?
At least during the qualification rounds...

There is no ONE Right way to play this game....
I applaud teams that have great hybrid modes....
I applaud teams that find simple ways to stop great hybrid modes....
I applaud everyone.... for just having the guts to step up to the challenge of being in FIRST....

If it were easy.... everyone would do it....

....
stepping off the soap box...

B

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

I would never tell a team that was trying to block when it was fully within the rules as we knew them, that they were doing things the WRONG way.

According to the rules, that is the wrong way.

There has been a trend in the past for teams to play "defense" every year, which realistically turns into them destroying other robots.

Do no automatically assume teams with more resources do not feel the hurt as much as teams without them. How do you think great teams are created? Thousands of hours of work. Getting your arm ripped off (and season ended) because a team wanted to play "defense" is probably just as disheartening as the situations you stated above.

[johnr]

Let me open that can of worms. How about this as a new auto.
wait five seconds then move. how would ref call that?
I saw our bot do some strange stuff last year to the point that i asked,"Where the heck did that come from?"

[Vogel648]

I still have a question about the ruling, it is clear that a task such as knocking a ball down or passing lines counts as "completing some other action" but say my robot had to go straight forward then suddenly stop in order to fold out our arm, or like 16 had to had to get themselves in some other configuration for the rest of the match. Would completing a task like that count or not?

[TubaMorg]

Originally Posted by johnr

Let me open that can of worms. How about this as a new auto.
wait five seconds then move. how would ref call that?
I saw our bot do some strange stuff last year to the point that i asked,"Where the heck did that come from?"

Ok off thread topic, but during Aim High our robot stunk. Our auto never worked right. One round, inexplicably, it took a long slow left turn and climbed right up the ramp and stopped. Our drivers were never able to climb the ramp by themselves. Of course, they managed to drive the robot off the ramp with two seconds left in the match Anyhow...back to topic, it's hard to tell what a team meant to do during hybrid vs. what actually happens. The update makes it fairly clear, though, that regardless of what a team means to do, if they happen to drive forward a few feet and end up disrupting the other team's hybrid, then they are in BIG trouble!

[Bob Steele]

I will make this one further comment.
Blocking the path of a robot in hybrid is not "tearing their arm off"

Trying to intentionally damage another robot is completely outside the scope of this argument. That is, most definitely, outside the rules.

My comment was related to whether things that are done within the rules are to be considered the WRONG way...

I, too, have distressed over the apparent increase in violent contact in the game over the years. I have respected the GDC's efforts to reduce the effects of possible contact between robots (bumpers and penalties).

I am speaking of the use of tactics that will negate other team's abilities to score.... tactics that are well within the scope of the rules.

I remember teams trying to stop other teams from hanging on the bar in the game in FIRST FRENZY... these defensive tactics varied from stopping and often tipping robots that tried to climb up the stairs to covering up the bar or just fighting it out on the platform...

Where any of these tactics WRONG? The spirit of the game "RAISING THE BAR" was to score points... some teams had very elaborate and wonderful technical answers to these challenges.... some did not...

IF the GDC wanted this to be a game in which contact or defense was not allowed, it would be simple enough to make rules that dictated that.
OR the game could be played with one robot on the field at a time....OR 3 robots from the same alliance playing at the same time...

That is not what the game is about. Robots must meet the challenge of overcoming the other alliance as well as just accomplishing the scoring goals.

I share in the anguish of a team that has an arm ripped off... or an electronics board damaged by an errant appendage... or actuators bent...
I have seen all of these things happen... both as a result of actions by the other alliance as well as "friendly" alliance members. I have also seen it happen to robots reacting with game elements. All of it is unfortunate and our team would be one of the first to jump in and help to fix another team's robot.

I don't want us to become ROBOT WARS.... competitions that are designed to destroy things are quite against my nature...

Blocking techniques, innovative defensive actions, and other tactics that enable a team to score MORE points than another team by limiting the other team's scoring are just as much a part of the game as hurdling or hybrid actions. The rules are there to prevent what the GDC and all of us want to prevent which is turning the game into Battle Bots...

I share in the anguish of any team who sees their best efforts squashed in the competition. Most teams put thousands of man-hours into the game.

We must keep our eyes on the prize. And the prize is really in the doing ....
Coming together to figure out simple answers to complex issues, working as a team, joining together with other teams to help them become competitive...spreading the word that everyone is capable of doing incredible things....

When I see a simple solution negate a complex, well-thought out plan I salute both teams... I also want to see the complex team come out in the next round and figure out a way to overcome that simple obstacle...

thank you for being passionate....
passion drives the world....

[johnr]

I hope it takes more then just disrupting to get penalty. I guess if your not sure your bot can atleast get past first line you better not move.

[SgtMillhouse648]

Well I personally am disappointed with the update. It takes a whole other dimension out of the game. It almost seems like nowadays many is against any kind of "violence" or defence at all, in games or in the real world. Everywhere people are worried about hurting people's feelings, and sadly now FIRST's seemed to stoop to everyone else's level. They wanted a high scoring game, well they had one with what little defense was in the game, but now, they'll get their high scores, but as Travis said, it will be complete and utter domination of another alliance. That makes for just plain old boring matches. I know everyone would rather watch a super close high scoring match versus a high scoring match with no opposition.
Just my $.02
Malhon

[Mike Harrison]

Watch the hybrid in this match. With no changes to hybrid mode whatsoever and without using the IR controller 2 robots managed to dodge the parked robot that drove 3 feet. So if someone does something that hurts your strategy, revamp your own strategy rather than try and blame them for not "playing by the rules". This video proves that it isn't that hard.

Edit: make that 3 if you count the other team on their own alliance.

[hipsterjr]

Grrrrrrrrrr. I was planing to have offense and defense hybrid at the flip of a switch. Anyone at Florida or Palmetto last year remembers "342's distracting autonomous dance". But with this latest update, it looks like that is dead . This is my least favorite update/rule.
I mean how exciting would it be to see a team narrowly drive around a blocker bot in autonomous!

[petek]

This update could spell real trouble for No Robot Left Behind - Hybrid. Say I'm a rookie or other under-mentored team and am having trouble getting my robot to move straight ahead in Hybrid but wanted to try to at least get to the 4 points for crossing our finish line.

Before this update I'd keep plugging away at it and if the robot only moved out to the end of the divider in one match, I'd say "well, we're half-way there" and keep plugging away at it. After this update, however, if we unintentionally blocked the opponent with this move we'd draw a yellow card. Do you think our robot will move in any more Hybrid periods? Not likely.