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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-03-2008, 20:06
JaneYoung JaneYoung is offline
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Regarding the purpose of the thread and the application/interview process.

There are teams that do this.
There are teams that are open door, everyone is welcome.

Both types of teams have the same goals/mission and that is a successful FIRST team. Hopefully, everyone enjoys the experience.

There is a lot of work involved starting a FIRST team in a new area, as I'm sure you know, Craig. It has been done. Hopefully some of the founders of teams that were started in college will see your thread and add their wisdom gained from their experiences.

It's interesting. I'm not sure I like 'elite' though. When I think of 'elite' teams in FIRST, I think of teams who have worked hard to put it all together into a successful package of achievement gained through the years of trial, error, battle scars, and callouses. To start an 'elite' team would mean a whole 'nother thing.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 20:24
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Thumbs up Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

In my own opinion, the idea is awesome.

His point of an application/selection is not meant to rule out the spirit of involvement that is FIRST. I think its a a great idea for people who have moved on from the high school level and want to enter a level that simulates more of a corporate or business type of engineering experience because this will help lead those students into the life of the work force. Sure, high school teams do this as well, but I think the level of engagement Craig is talking about is to focus on a more advanced feel for the engineering and design aspect of the robot.
Other than being more competitive and a little more exclusive, I don't see how its that far from the inclusive mindset of FIRST.

"The team would be a very fast moving, highly competitive environment, meant to simulate a real world business as closely as possible. In order to have a robot design approved, a member must "sell" it to the Board (which would be senior students and mentors)."

(emphasis mine)

Good luck with it Craig
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Unread 06-03-2008, 20:52
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathieK View Post
OK, so here's my "flack".

If you are looking to start a selective FIRST team for the sole purpose of creating a very competitive team, then sorry, you've missed the point of FIRST.

It ain't about the robots.

Wouldn't it be a better use of your VERY LIMITED TIME as a freshman, to get more students interested in STEM areas instead of limiting your team to only a chosen few?
I see that I came across as wanting this for the sole purpose of being competitive, and so I need to jump on it quickly and apologize for coming across that way. The main point would be to weed out serious students, and to simulate a business environment as much as possible, from the way hiring works, all the way to product (in this case the robot) development and selection.

Sorry for coming across the other way, I slammed out the thread in a relatively short amount of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneYoung View Post
It's interesting. I'm not sure I like 'elite' though. When I think of 'elite' teams in FIRST, I think of teams who have worked hard to put it all together into a successful package of achievement gained through the years of trial, error, battle scars, and callouses. To start an 'elite' team would mean a whole 'nother thing.
Elite wasn't really meant to be a snobby type term, but more of show where I've found ideas for the team. Elite means I've gone through hell on a team, and watched others get torn apart by issues that could be solved by something as simple as a more corporate environment. Elite means taking most of the dead weight out of a team, in order to focus the learning as much as possible. Elite was more of my way of saying a selected, focused force, rather than a scattered group of students and mentors working feverishly to complete a task.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilstogi11 View Post
In my own opinion, the idea is awesome.

His point of an application/selection is not meant to rule out the spirit of involvement that is FIRST. I think its a a great idea for people who have moved on from the high school level and want to enter a level that simulates more of a corporate or business type of engineering experience because this will help lead those students into the life of the work force. Sure, high school teams do this as well, but I think the level of engagement Craig is talking about is to focus on a more advanced feel for the engineering and design aspect of the robot.
Other than being more competitive and a little more exclusive, I don't see how its that far from the inclusive mindset of FIRST.
Good luck with it Craig
Exactly.

The goal here would be to have the team operate as a business would. In order to join a company, you need to apply. If the position you're applying is already full, you can either get denied or apply for a different position (obviously we'd have to set a certain number of posts per job). Once you're on the company, you're going to have shop hours. You're going to have to make design changes rapidly, and then "sell" your idea to the Board in order to get funding and the ability to move forward.


I think a team like this could do a world of good, if properly managed. It would teach students huge responsibility, and immerse them into the business model much earlier than a normal team. There are a ton of students that wouldn't work well on a team this structured, and that's fine. Many students haven't developed to that level yet. However, I believe it would be immeasurably beneficial for the ones that ARE ready for it.

EDIT: I forgot to make this clear! This team wouldn't be based at a normal public high school. Instead, it would be based at a Middle College program, which is only populated by students who are either not very involved in the public school system, or who are far in advance of the normal schooling level. That locale would ensure a fairly professional applicant field.

Last edited by CraigHickman : 06-03-2008 at 20:54. Reason: forgot something.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 20:52
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

To go along with what Jane mentioned, I think it would be a challenge to start a team off with just lofty expectations and standards. I think creating such team take a few seasons as the team learns about FIRST. I know that my first year, I didn't really understand what FIRST was all about or how cool it was, so I probably wouldn't be willing to put all the time and effort into being part of an 'elite' team. If anything, I probably would be a little scared away by how offical and business-like it would seem. Now, however, I would love to be on a team like that, but that I after I learned how amazing FIRST is. I think the first year or two will be very challenging as you instal some of the ideals. I am very interested to see how that would go though.

To go along with some others concerns, I would wait atleast one year in college before deciding if starting a team is something that you can (or want) to do.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 21:06
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

While you mention you are in an alternative high school program where you are taking college classes, once you are away from home & at college full-time, things will change. It won't be as easy as you expect it to be. That free time you think you will have isn't always there and it doesn't always happen once you get out in the 'real' world either.

Personally, I feel if you are looking to make an 'elite' team through an interview process you are missing the point of FIRST. FIRST is more than just a competition.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 21:36
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Well, I dont mean to offend or anything, but i'll offer my $.02

My team was founded from the remains of a team that was highly selective, and that would turn members down. From what I heard, many people with great talent ran into issues with that last team.

Since then, we have always had the philosophy that we'll accept anyone who's dedicated and willing to be part of the team. For us, that means they are willing to offer 12 hours a week to the project. We do not do any "interviews" or "surveys" or whatever, and it's always worked out great.

Based on that, I feel that if you sampled the incoming members and only selectively allowed some in, then I feel that you're limiting your own ability. If we had such a system, I probably would have been turned down, as I was, as a freshman, quite useless. However, I, like most people, learned over time. I think that it's this learning experience that makes a great team, not just only inviting students who are good to start with.

Truthbetold, I, from time to time, do think some people shouldn't be involved in robotics, but then I tell myself, "I was that kid 2 years ago... and the leadership at the time prob thought the same way of me... and look at me now...". I think that's the philosophy that (all) teams should have.

From Alex Golec's sig, it said something along the lines of "It's never too late to be inspired", and how true that is. I think if you give all students a chance, sooner or later, that time will come. For me, it didn't come until my sophmore year. For others, it may come earlier or later.

Well, I hope that made sense...

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Unread 06-03-2008, 21:44
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Kudos Craig. I like what you're trying to do, and if you need help you know how/where to find it.


KathieK,

To have a successful team that spreads the "STEM" message, you need members. You need members to start FLL teams, you need members to start EARLY team and you need members to mentor these teams as well as GEAR, BEST, and Botball teams. But you must have members. I would hope that teams don't kill themselves with STEM to the degree they can't sustain themselves. I would much rather see a team that establishes a strong foundation that picks up STEM after a few years than starting all of this STEM stuff from birth.

How do you get members? Competition. Why? Competition builds interest and excitement.

Saying "Hey join the IronSproks robotics team, it's FUNN!!!" doesn't cut it.
Saying "Hey, join the IronSporks, we were one of the top teams at our competition and we beat some guys that have been doing this for 15 years!! Come join, it's FUNN!!!" does.

Without members you have nothing. EVEN if you have administration support, EVEN if you have sponsor support, and EVEN if you have a large mentor base, without students you don't have a FIRST team.


Pavan





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Unread 06-03-2008, 21:53
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Our team requires an application (essay, teacher recommendations, and a resume) and an interview with the mentors. I think it is a great idea, it gives us the oppertunity to practice skills that will be used later in life when looking for jobs.

Also, if you decide not to come back the next year, you do an exit interview. If you come back, you are required to re-interview and turn in an updated resume along with an evaluation of the year. These interviews are done with the mentors and any of the seniors who are graduating.

Although I don't think anyone has ever been turned away, I think this is a great method to teach useful skills and it requires students to work for their position on the team. It also helps weed out students who aren't willing to do the work from those who truly want to be on the team.
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  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-03-2008, 21:55
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigHickman View Post
So I'm going to be moving on to college next year (don't know exactly where yet, we shall see), and I'm looking to bring FIRST with me. One of my major choices does not have a team nearbye, and I think it would be fun to start one.
Go for it! I am currently a freshman computer engineering student. Given how much FIRST has become part of my life, I would pretty much have depression from January until April if I wasn't involved with a FIRST team. I didn't start a team here in Oklahoma, but jumped in as the primary mentor for a rookie team. It was a crazy build season (What build season isn't?), but I survived. Just make sure you have support from other students and teachers. If you're able to lay some solid groundwork during the fall, you should be able to pull it off.

I think there could be a fine balance between having a dedicated, professional team and making it seem like you are an exclusive, snobbish bunch. Your idea sounds decent, just be careful.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 21:56
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

FIRST isn't (or shouldn't be) about taking the most talented or serious people. It is/should be about taking anyone who wants to come in and making them talented and serious.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 22:03
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

I misunderstood Craig's initial post, as he indicated earlier. My definition of a "successful" team is probably different from most other people's. My definition of a successful team has nothing to do with the competition outcome. To me a successful FIRST team is one that has inspired young people, who may never have thought of joining a robotics team, to get involved and learn more about science, engineering, technology and math.

I'm not opposed to an application system; in fact, I think it's a good thing for team leaders to find out why someone wants to be on the team and what their goals are so they can help them achieve those goals. Many student applications that I have read have said, "Because I think it will be fun." Well, that statement should open up a dialog with that person to find out why they think it will be fun to be on the robotics team, and from there, you can find out where their interests lie. It opens a dialog that should begin with the expectations of being a member of the team - time and financial commitments, etc. But I am not in favor of a team which is selective in their membership. Maybe I got shut out of too many activities in high school that were competitive, like sports, the newspaper, etc. And, you need to be careful in the setting you are in - in some schools a "team" implies a selective process will be used for membership and a "club" must have open enrollment. And the school often defines which type of organization you are.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 22:05
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
How do you get members? Competition. Why? Competition builds interest and excitement.

Saying "Hey join the IronSproks robotics team, it's FUNN!!!" doesn't cut it.
Saying "Hey, join the IronSporks, we were one of the top teams at our competition and we beat some guys that have been doing this for 15 years!! Come join, it's FUNN!!!" does.

Without members you have nothing. EVEN if you have administration support, EVEN if you have sponsor support, and EVEN if you have a large mentor base, without students you don't have a FIRST team.


Pavan
Exactly. One of the advantages of being competition focused will be greater publicity. Honestly, I've had a team lose sponsorship due to lack of competition prowess. Their reason was "Great, you're teaching students engineering, but we want our logo on something that wins."

As for the team name, it won't be IronSporks, however fun it would be to take my internet moniker and turn it into a team name. Most likely it will be something along the lines of Ninjaneering, or Mayhem Engineering (actually the "brand" of custom longboards that I've been building over the last year).
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Unread 06-03-2008, 22:10
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

I can totally see your point in this discussion Craig. My team is a huge group of people and we welcome everyone. However every year it ends up being a small select few who make a big commitment generally seniors and finish the whole project. I see a lot of teams out there who have great robots but many of them have several well educated mentors who have been doing this for awhile helping them if not doing the entire thing. Our team doesn’t have these kinds of resources. To be honest i would love to be on a team who all appreciated all the opportunities FIRST has to offer as much as me. So in that respect if i was in charge of a team i would try and build a team of dedicated students who have a developed understanding of each aspect of robotics. I think a team of at least 20 to 30 dedicated students could split the work involved with first pretty equally and they would be able to create a very competitive robot. However the major thing i love about our team is we are completely student run and i was able to design, fabricate, and build every component on our robot. I think i would greatly miss this kind of opportunity on a team dominated by mentors.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 22:11
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

First off, pay attention to the people who advise you to focus on college first, robotics second. there are lots of burned out college sophomores who wish they would have focused on school work more.

For 234, we have an application and interview process, and we do it for several reasons. We do not do it to create an "elite" team.

* students must take the time to fill out the application and answer a few questions. that shows an initial interest in the program.

* second year and on students must create a resume. they highlight their first experience and other info that they think we would like to know.

* students are interviewed by mentors. we get to know them. we explain the program, the time involved, other aspects of the team. we try to find out where their interests lie. first time students have it very easy.

* second year and on students have a 'tougher' interview. we talk about their past season, what they have learned and contributed, and what they plan to contribute in the next season. If there are concerns or issues with participation level, performance, behavior, etc. they are discussed during this interview. (I wish many professionals could deal with these interviews the way these students do.)

We have had several former students tell us that after going thru our team interview process, that college interviews and job interviews were relatively easy. they thanked us for giving them the skills and confidence to go thru the process.

Sometimes (rarely), students don't make the team, but it is not because they are not smart enough, or don't know how to weld or have some other skill. It is usually because they are not been willing to make the time committment, or there are grade issues to where the student cannot be involved in a school activity, or there were significant behavior issues, or they were simply involved in too many other activities for FIRST to fit in and we asked them to make a choice. We are over-accomodating for students who are borderline and work hard to keep them on the team.

One advantage of this type of process is that we have a very high retention rate. Students who are on the team in December are still there in April, because they know what is expected of them, know they have to attend and participate to be considererd part of the team and travel, and they feel a real sense of ownership on the team because they have worked to be a part of it.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 22:35
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

I'm not at college level yet, but I know people who are. It's a real time-filler, you should really focus on that, at least for the first few years. If you'd like to keep in touch with other teams, I highly recommend Skype. Free PC-to-PC calling, now includes video (so you can see their progress ), and very cheap calling rates for PC-to-phone.

http://www.skype.com/

I'm starting a new team, too, and it is VERY time consuming, not to mention a bit stressful. Your "business" plan is a good idea, if the students you are trying to appeal to are interested. Every region, city, and team uses a different approach or angle when trying to reel in more students and sponsors, if it works then kudos to you!
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