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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-03-2008, 23:03
Akash Rastogi Akash Rastogi is offline
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Don't forget, it won't be JUST Craig. I would like to assume that anyone who wants to commit to his new team will have a role that is just as time consuming. So, in turn, the work load of running the team will be spread out. And honestly, I don't think people undertand that Craig knows his limits on this too. Like he said, he has a college workload already. Another part of spreading the workload is that students who will want to participate on the team and actually get in, will be accepted based on their merits of being both mechanically apt and will have strong leadership capabilities...just like an other team, the burden is not on one person alone.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 23:10
JaneYoung JaneYoung is offline
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

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Originally Posted by lilstogi11 View Post
just like an other team, the burden is not on one person alone.
The elite teams have learned this.
The stable, dependable teams have learned this.
There are teams that struggle with survival because they have not learned this - sharing the load.
Or had this opportunity.
There are some break out teams that hit the ground running their rookie year, shortly after formation. There are more teams that form as rookies and don't have a break out year but have a successful year to build on.

How Craig develops his plans for the team and is able to implement them in the new area/location and gather the support that he will need/require will determine a lot about his rookie year before it even starts. That's the nature of it.
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Last edited by JaneYoung : 06-03-2008 at 23:13. Reason: additional info
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Unread 07-03-2008, 01:25
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

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Originally Posted by JaneYoung View Post
The elite teams have learned this.
The stable, dependable teams have learned this.
There are teams that struggle with survival because they have not learned this - sharing the load.
Or had this opportunity.
Exactly. I can think of two teams that come from one side or the other. One has had parents since the beginning; the other just got parents on board this year. One is an "elite" team; the other has the potential to be one.

Oh, and Craig--whereabouts are you thinking of going to college? Just out of curiosity.
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Unread 07-03-2008, 01:36
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Exactly. I can think of two teams that come from one side or the other. One has had parents since the beginning; the other just got parents on board this year. One is an "elite" team; the other has the potential to be one.

Oh, and Craig--whereabouts are you thinking of going to college? Just out of curiosity.
I'm either looking at Whitworth University (Spokane Wa.), or Humbolt State (CA, closer to home, and has environmental engineering, which I like).
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Unread 07-03-2008, 01:40
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Honestly, if 648 had an application then I doubt there would be a team anymore. The students on there are mostly ones that wouldn't pass through a weeding process but have brought things that help the team as a whole. There are, like every other team has, a select few that sometimes make it necessary for an application process.

As it stands, there is no application for 648, and I probably wouldn't recommend one.
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Unread 07-03-2008, 03:45
Alex Golec Alex Golec is offline
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Some may say that in order to teach, the students must first be willing to learn. Others might say, that in order to teach, one must inspire the students to learn. I believe FIRST follows the latter - Inspiring students to learn.

I am a college freshman mentor. I declined almost everyone's advice on the ChiefDelphi forums about waiting a year to mentor, and I am have not regretted the decision - but, bear in mind, that I work cooperatively with 3 other college students.

Having transitioned from student to mentor, I have come to learn one thing - it's not your robot anymore. It's theirs. This program is about the students learning - and if you can find a way to promote that in your program, by all means do so.

Now that I have come through over half of my first FIRST season as a mentor, I have learned that the choices a mentor makes are tougher than I had ever imagined, all of which have helped to define a fundamental principle:

Student Inspiration Surpasses Award Aspirations


That was not what I had in mind when I joined. Honestly, I hoped for a group of "perfect" students in which the mentor role was minimalized and we could focus on winning game objectives. From what I understand, this is what an application process has the potential to do - draw in motivated students. However, that clashes my interpretation of the teaching philosophy because it can turn away the interested, yet shy potential of many younger students.

I joined this program because I saw an awesome looking robot and a bunch of odd parts on a table. I lagged in the program, did a minimal amount of work, until 4 days before ship date, when something in me "clicked" and spent those 4 whole days in the machine shop working my butt off.

In retrospect, the "click" was not miraculous - but rather generated by the gentle encouragement of my mentors. Dan mumbled stuff about rollers needing a few more parts to function, Ed showed me how to mill and drill a what-now-seems-so-simple part, Gail complemented that part and suggested that I do more for that system, and the cycle continued.

It is NEVER to Late to be Inspired


Because of the events of my freshman year, I hold dear to this philosophy in all aspects of my teaching,learning and life. Every curious student deserves an opportunity to join a team, and find what inspires them.

Hence, I respectfully disagree with your proposal, but encourage you to continue with FIRST - provided that it does not hinder your education - and your role as a mentor. However, as many have said here, do find some friends to share the burden and the benefits with you. With a couple more mentors worth of organization, you should be able to take on all the students that come your way.

Good luck and best wishes,

-Alex Golec

And in case you're still looking for numerical data, 469 has never had an application and has had about 24, 30, 16, 24, and 24 students in the last 5 years. 830 also has never had an application and has had about 30 students in each of the last two years.

Last edited by Alex Golec : 07-03-2008 at 03:53. Reason: afterthoughts...
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  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2008, 07:19
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavan Dave View Post
Kudos Craig. I like what you're trying to do, and if you need help you know how/where to find it.


KathieK,

To have a successful team that spreads the "STEM" message, you need members. You need members to start FLL teams, you need members to start EARLY team and you need members to mentor these teams as well as GEAR, BEST, and Botball teams. But you must have members. I would hope that teams don't kill themselves with STEM to the degree they can't sustain themselves. I would much rather see a team that establishes a strong foundation that picks up STEM after a few years than starting all of this STEM stuff from birth.
I'm confused. The whole idea of FIRST is to provide Inspiration and Recognition of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY. The last I knew Science and Technology was part of STEM. How can you have a FIRST team doing the right things and NOT be focused on STEM education. Are we not supposed to be teaching the students?
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  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2008, 09:19
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

I like that you are starting a team- good plan. I also think your business-like plan would work very efficiently and make the team work excellently together, and would prepare the students for real-life experiences.

However- I am not a huge fan of the 'application' process for NEW teams. (If an older team has, say 90 gazillion people from their school who want to join, then weeding out the unproductive people or people who are only joining for their college resume makes sense.)

From your post, it seems like you would be starting a rookie team, at a school that has not had FIRST before. I don't think it would be a good idea to exclude people from a brand new team- let everyone in the school see FIRST. Then, if they want to join it, they can. If not, it's their loss.

I personally don't like the idea of an application for a team- unless, like I said before, it's a veteran team with a lot of interest. In those cases, it's important to weed out those who are there for the wrong reasons-- AFTER they see a FIRST competition. Once they see it, if they're not hooked, they're off. That's what 1923 does.

Good for you for starting a new team- major kudos. I have done it, and it's really hard. If you have any questions about the process, feel free to PM me. I'm only sharing my $0.02 on the idea of applications- and you can feel free to ignore it if you choose. Just bringing some ideas to the table.

Best of luck to you.
Go (insert future team # here)!
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  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2008, 11:06
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss View Post
I'm confused. The whole idea of FIRST is to provide Inspiration and Recognition of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY. The last I knew Science and Technology was part of STEM. How can you have a FIRST team doing the right things and NOT be focused on STEM education. Are we not supposed to be teaching the students?
So there are two different types of STEM in first. The science, math, engineering and stuff that people learn WHILE participating in FRC is one thing completely. That is "inspiring people" period. Then there is another aspect of spreading STEM via. EARLY, BEST, etc., that. What I am saying is you must teach yourself before teaching a class.

To those who are complaining about the application process,
This team will NOT be school affiliated. It will have participants from schools but it will not be a "SCHOOL" team. It will be an extra curricular activity so there aren't even 10000 people to choose from, ONLY those interested enough that want to apply to this program and show that they meet X standards will make a strong team with some knowledge starting off which is better than having 50 people on your team but only 5 that can identify the difference between a standard and metric crescent wrench when it comes competition time.


Pavan



.
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  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2008, 11:21
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavan Dave View Post
So there are two different types of STEM in first. The science, math, engineering and stuff that people learn WHILE participating in FRC is one thing completely. That is "inspiring people" period. Then there is another aspect of spreading STEM via. EARLY, BEST, etc., that. What I am saying is you must teach yourself before teaching a class.

.

If you need to teach yourself any of the science, technology, engineering or math disciplines, then you should not be trying to run a team in the sense that this thread is talking about. A NEMO can run a team, but there needs to be a support system of engineers or tech ed trained teachers in place other wise you lose the spirit of the program, expose the students to the process and teach them about GP, engineering methods, deadlines, financial restrictions, personal relationships, the application of class room lessons and general life lessons.

I admit, I know nothing of Best or Early, so I cannot speak to those programs. If you are going to come into FIRST with an "elite" mentality, that is to win on the field at all costs, then you have missed the point of FIRST.

My $.02. Over and out.
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  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2008, 11:50
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

We have an application, but its really just to get a feel for the strengths of our members, and where we should focus on improvement for the year. The only time we really reject someone is if they are a consistent negative influence, they are unproductive, or they get the team in trouble. So far, this has never happened (knocks on wood).

your idea for limiting applications though is flawed, because many people who want to join the robot team dont feel inspired to do much until they have been on the team for a while (i stress many because i know this isnt true for all). I think your idea of action, though would be positive in the buisiness world, actually goes against what first is trying to promote. you sure wouldnt get an engineering inspiration award.

I think though, that your idea of 'selling' robot designs is a very good one. We do a similar thing with a KJ process every year, break off into prototyping teams, and get going. Only the best of the drawn designs get prototyped, only they best (components) of the prototypes get built, and so on until we have a robot.
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  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2008, 12:22
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libby K View Post
I like that you are starting a team- good plan. I also think your business-like plan would work very efficiently and make the team work excellently together, and would prepare the students for real-life experiences.
I, totally, 100% disagree. I don't care if you know how to do the work or can handle it, that's only 30% of college. You have to do a lot more than just work, and ask anyone who's gone to college from FIRST and they'll tell you to take a year off. If there's one piece of advice to follow from this thread, take that.

I know a guy who wanted to start a team near where he was, talked to people, then go to campus. He joined Model Rocketry and Mini Baja, and now doens't go to those but instead goes to band parties, is in the swing dancing club, and is probably going to be part of band next year. I'm also trying to get him to rush Phi Psi. Take a guess who that is.

I also know someone who was gun-ho about mentoring through his university but dropped it and changed majors his first semester. He's a History major (lame x10) and part of the Alpha Sig.

The point is you have no idea where the winds will take you. Don't let FIRST hinder you and hold you back with your first year on campus, you need to grow beyond HS and stop reliving it, which I think some people need to realize in the program right now (not you, but just saying...). Do something different.

Quote:
However- I am not a huge fan of the 'application' process for NEW teams. (If an older team has, say 90 gazillion people from their school who want to join, then weeding out the unproductive people or people who are only joining for their college resume makes sense.)
Agree in full, Beta Theta Pi on campus is a collony and has a lengthy application process, rush events, and high GPA requirement. Sure, they're getting guys, but at what cost to losing them when they graduate? Sometimes the most impressive and hardest working kids have the lowest GPA, or don't have that impressive of a resume. FIRST is about letting kids blossom into adults, not finding those who peak in HS and giving them an outlet to play in.

Drop me a line sometime if you want to talk about it more.
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Last edited by Joe Matt : 07-03-2008 at 17:56.
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Unread 07-03-2008, 12:59
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Matt View Post
Ask anyone who's gone to college from FIRST and they'll tell you to take a year off.
Anyone? As I posted above, I'm a college freshman and was heavily involved with a team this year. It was somewhat difficult at times, but I don't regret it at all.
I don't think doing FIRST in college is reliving high school. FIRST is a model of the real world, and even professional engineers gain things from the program.
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Unread 07-03-2008, 13:07
JaneYoung JaneYoung is offline
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

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Originally Posted by Joe Matt View Post
The point is you have no idea where the winds will take you.
What a great post, Joe.

The only question I have regarding the posts discussing the pros and cons of staying involved/starting a team/or not - is - do these comments and opinions address the purpose/questions pertaining to this thread?

The comments are great and deserve consideration but would they be better in their own thread/discussion regarding the transition from high school to college and the level of involvement of a FIRSTer?
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Unread 07-03-2008, 13:11
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Re: Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

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Originally Posted by JaneYoung View Post
What a great post, Joe.

The only question I have regarding the posts discussing the pros and cons of staying involved/starting a team/or not - is - do these comments and opinions address the purpose/questions pertaining to this thread?

The comments are great and deserve consideration but would they be better in their own thread/discussion regarding the transition from high school to college and the level of involvement of a FIRSTer?
I felt that it's the right place to put them and I think that it pertains to the discussion, though I do at the end try to cover the main topic a little. It is still about a high school student who's starting a team in college.
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