Elite (invite only) FIRST teams

[coldfusion1279]

I think you might find that in an area with no current FIRST teams that you will have difficulty "fielding" a team (of course that depends on population density)...

What I mean is, why even be selective? The more people the team has, the more ideas you get, the better your robot will turn out (if victory and glory is what your after).

I come from a team that had 10 active members in our rookie year (only up to 14 active, with 6 or 7 that contribute to strategy/building). We physically don't have the man-power to apply for things like the Chairman's award since the work load gets to be too large for the students (especially with students who do other activities).

The idea of becoming a business-like team is a very neat idea, don't get me wrong. But part of the reason that companies don't hire people is because they don't have the resources (money and space). People expect to get paid for their ideas in industry, but in FIRST, it doesn't work that way. All students want to do is learn about pneumatics and programming, and have some fun. If you had 800 applicants for the team, then you need to do some downsizing, but in general 60 people with a very gifted 20 people will outperform just those 20 gifted people.

And especially if its the only team in the area, why deny students the opportunity to get involved in something so spectacular?

If you give me a really good answer I will 100% support you in your venture, I would even offer to help (if I wasn't on the east coast) cause it sounds like an interesting idea.

[StephLee]

I have a personal anecdote of sorts to add to the discussion. If our team had had a serious application process when it started when I was a freshman, I would not be on the team and consequently would not be majoring in engineering, would probably still be painfully shy and indecisive, and would not have made some of the best friends of my life. I'd be going to a local community college instead of looking outside the small area I've known my whole life.

You see, I wasn't interested in robotics when I joined. I joined because I had nothing better to do during the winter of my freshman year, and the pictures they showed me looked cool. That's about it.

If you have a rigorous application process, you will certainly recruit members who are more likely to be productive - but you will also cut off some of the kids I believe you should be trying to inspire. The ones who don't KNOW they can love science and math. They won't apply if it's too difficult. The students you're trying to attract with the selection process will most likely come even if it's open for anyone; the ones whose lives you can completely change won't.

Just my $.02.

[4throck]

Any FIRST team based on the principles of exclusivity and winning at all costs goes against everything that FIRST stands for. Such a team would neither inspire nor motivate any student except the most selfishly ambitious. While your scheme may or may not produce a team that is successful on the field, it is not likely to produce many innovative engineers, or indeed anyone else besides mid-level managers. Rather, it would only educate participating students in the priciples of groupthink, kowtowing to the status quo, and a static conception of what constitutes innovation. Just because someone can sell an idea to a board of directors (i.e. an oligarchy) does not mean that they have anything useful to say. Such a team would only perpetuate passive conformity and suppress truly creative thinking.

We at 1418 have always strongly condemned any application process for our members. This has not only resulted in success on the field, but also in true inspiration. Our alumni have graduated from our program with a passion for discovery and a willingness to break the mold to find the best solution to a problem. Part of the reason for this has been our philosophical emphasis on content before appearance. A mere presentation of intent does not consitute a viable solution to any problem. No matter how slick a speil a student can put on a piece of paper, in the end it is the process of construction that defines the robot. This should be a learning process emphasizing collaboration and personal development before personal glory.

In the end, you have to ask yourself whether FIRST is about shutting people out, or teaching, including, and encouraging everyone who is ready to put in the hours and has something productive to contribute.

--Commander Rachek and 4throck

[Melissa Nute]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave

To those who are complaining about the application process,This team will NOT be school affiliated. It will have participants from schools but it will not be a "SCHOOL" team. It will be an extra curricular activity so there aren't even 10000 people to choose from, ONLY those interested enough that want to apply to this program and show that they meet X standards will make a strong team with some knowledge starting off which is better than having 50 people on your team but only 5 that can identify the difference between a standard and metric crescent wrench when it comes competition time.


Pavan

This is going to have issues come competition season when you need to get students out to attend. Schools will have to be affiliated with some support of the team otherwise the students are going to be in bad shape when they are missing classes due to FIRST events. A school official has to take care of the necessary paperwork to approve the time off for the students.

[rachal]

Personally, I never would have known I was interested in (or talented at, relatively) engineering if I hadn't done FIRST. What you're doing is starting up an uber-team just for kicks, which is awesome for competent FIRST veterans still in high school who have gotten too fed up with their original teams to work with them, but completely skips over the whole teamwork-and-get-kids-interested-in-science thing.

[Mr. Van]

Its not about the robots.

If you have FIRST in your blood, then step up to the real challenge and cross the line to mentoring, coaching and volunteering. Be a referee or assist in field management, or robot inspector. Or start a team and guide it in the ideals of FIRST.

But ask yourself, "Why?" and "Who am I doing this for?" If the answer has anything to do with "I like building robots" then by all means, build robots, but you can do that without FIRST. If the answer has something to do with "passing it on" or "sharing" or "inspiring", then let that be the foundation for your new team.

Good luck!

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[Alex Golec]

Originally Posted by StephLee

If our team had had a serious application process when it started when I was a freshman, I would not be on the team and consequently would not be majoring in engineering,

The mission of FIRST has been rediscovered!

Hm, I guess I should throw this out in a little bit more detailed form. Here's what my brainsession has come up with so far:

-Applications. The main purpose of this is to target specific subteams, and to simulate applying to a job. The acceptance rate would be around 100%, unless there's a special circumstance.

-Business model for team operation. Students and mentors will have to present, and "sell" ideas for robot and funding to a "board" that will be made up of senior members and Mentors, and basically anyone who happens to be around at the time. Budget will be handled through part and funding requests, in order to simulate a corporate model.

-Leadership. After the team is established, the students will elect a CEO type position. The goal of this position is to see that the teams goals are met. These goals are as follows: To educate students on practical business skills and engineering, and to Keep the team competitive.

-Review. Like any company, the team will have review sessions. In these, they will go back over the season, or build session, and analyze what happened. Necessary changes will be marked, and implemented in the next revision or meeting.

-Location. The team (hopefully) will not be tied to a single school or location. If a student from another team in a different state wishes to help out with the team, they can apply and "telecommute" their work via CAD, internet, and USPS. Just as in a corporate model, there would be limits to this. In order to be considered to be a satellite member, the student/mentor would need to offer some skill or asset that a local member cannot provide.


The main goal here would be to simulate a business model. It wouldn't be a slow, mainstream business model, but more of one closely resembling groups like Lockheed's Skunkworks group; a highly specialized team of engineers working towards a common goal, with a structure surrounding them that allows creativity.

[EricH]

Now that you've laid it out in a little more detail...

I kind of like it. I still think you should concentrate on college life, or get several other mentors to help.

Applications: I think most teams that use them use them like you describe. Likewise for review.

Your other ideas are kind of interesting. The location one kind of describes what I've been doing with 1135 this year.

[Akash Rastogi]

The way I see it from the way it is explained above (which was the same interpretation I had before) Craig has a regular team, just more business oriented. More business and more advanced. By all means, I don't think his team's focus will be to have an unstoppable robot. I think its to have a more structured corporate environment (which I think could be something good for college teams).

Hope you keep going for it Craig

Originally Posted by EricH

Now that you've laid it out in a little more detail...

I kind of like it. I still think you should concentrate on college life, or get several other mentors to help.

Applications: I think most teams that use them use them like you describe. Likewise for review.

Your other ideas are kind of interesting. The location one kind of describes what I've been doing with 1135 this year.

Oh, there's no way this kind of undertaking would be a single mentor effort. It simply couldn't happen. I've got another person in mind who will probably be down to help out, once I find out where he is.

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

The way I see it from the way it is explained above (which was the same interpretation I had before) Craig has a regular team, just more business oriented. More business and more advanced. By all means, I don't think his team's focus will be to have an unstoppable robot. I think its to have a more structured corporate environment (which I think could be something good for college teams).

Hope you keep going for it Craig

Yeah, pretty much. I've taken all the issues I've had with teams in the past, and devised a system to work them out, while still keeping the freedom for new ideas and ingenuity.

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

EDIT: This team wouldn't be based at a normal public high school. Instead, it would be based at a Middle College program, which is only populated by students who are either not very involved in the public school system, or who are far in advance of the normal schooling level. That locale would ensure a fairly professional applicant field.

I'm wondering if you will find the population that you're seeking at a Middle College program. I teach at a Community College which has an affiliated Middle College. While there is a wide range in the quality and level of education at various CC's and MC's, often the level of the average MC student is even below that of the local public high schools. Many of the MC students I've seen are those who struggle in high school for various reasons, including social ones. Because of the prevalence of IB/AP, many talented HS students choose to receive public HS education, rather than prematurely move into college. My son's (pre-AP) high school intermediate algebra course was far more rigorous than the one that I teach at the local CC; this is the course that some of the most advanced MC students take for their HS math requirement.

Our CC offered a LEGO robotics class to MC students, but it was not as successful as hoped, because the students seemed to lack motivation to do anything, including robotics. When they were done, few had a sufficient grasp of robotics to program the robot to do more than move forward. In contrast, local elementary school students ate up the same material and performed spectacularly at a local FLL tournament.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Hm, I guess I should throw this out in a little bit more detailed form. Here's what my brainsession has come up with so far:

....

-Location. The team (hopefully) will not be tied to a single school or location. If a student from another team in a different state wishes to help out with the team, they can apply and "telecommute" their work via CAD, internet, and USPS. Just as in a corporate model, there would be limits to this. In order to be considered to be a satellite member, the student/mentor would need to offer some skill or asset that a local member cannot provide.


The main goal here would be to simulate a business model. It wouldn't be a slow, mainstream business model, but more of one closely resembling groups like Lockheed's Skunkworks group; a highly specialized team of engineers working towards a common goal, with a structure surrounding them that allows creativity.

So when can we apply?

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

I'm wondering if you will find the population that you're seeking at a Middle College program. I teach at a Community College which has an affiliated Middle College. While there is a wide range in the quality and level of education at various CC's and MC's, often the level of the average MC student is even below that of the local public high schools. Many of the MC students I've seen are those who struggle in high school for various reasons, including social ones. Because of the prevalence of IB/AP, many talented HS students choose to receive public HS education, rather than prematurely move into college. My son's (pre-AP) high school intermediate algebra course was far more rigorous than the one that I teach at the local CC; this is the course that some of the most advanced MC students take for their HS math requirement.

Our CC offered a LEGO robotics class to MC students, but it was not as successful as hoped, because the students seemed to lack motivation to do anything, including robotics. When they were done, few had a sufficient grasp of robotics to program the robot to do more than move forward. In contrast, local elementary school students ate up the same material and performed spectacularly at a local FLL tournament.

Hm, thanks for your input. The Middle College program that I'm at seems to be the opposite. With a few exceptions, the bulk of the students are there because the local High School wasn't challenging enough, or lacked the right course choices.

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

So when can we apply?

Well, the team technically needs to exist first... But if you're willing to help out, I'll take any help I can get!

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Hm, I guess I should throw this out in a little bit more detailed form. Here's what my brainsession has come up with so far:....

The main goal here would be to simulate a business model. It wouldn't be a slow, mainstream business model, but more of one closely resembling groups like Lockheed's Skunkworks group; a highly specialized team of engineers working towards a common goal, with a structure surrounding them that allows creativity.

I like this synthesis of ideas Craig... We could sure use you in Washington so think more seriously about Whitworth. We are trying to develop more teams in Eastern Washington and you could be a big part of that. Our team uses the model you are trying to produce. We find it hard to utilize e-mentors. There is nothing really like sitting next to an engineer and working problems out across the table face to face. It is worth a try though...

Let us know if we can help you somehow. Stick with it...

Remember... be quick, be quiet, and be on time.... wink

You have help from Seattle if you need it....

Good luck in your new venture!!