New FTC Platform

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

I'm hoping a team will step up and make a forum like CD deticated to FTC.

your wish is being answered

[artdutra04]

There are a lot of teams who have invested a lot of money in to Vex kits.

FTC was supposed to be the low-cost robot competition, in order to get FIRST into more high schools.

This new platform only causes teams to go out, and replace everything they already own with $1000+ of new stuff. That's not cheap.

I don't know about you, but I know of several teams who are more willing to stick with their financial investments (in Vex) than they are with FTC. Especially with free Vex competitions like Savage Soccer and Bridge Battle that utilize the Vex kits, and provide as much challenge and inspiration as anything from FTC.

I do not see any reason why the current Vex platform is outdated, unnecessary, or otherwise needs to be replaced with a new system. Some parts might be upgradeable, but it does not need to be outright replaced. Therefore, this represents an intentional decision to force FTC teams to purchase an entirely new system and take on the financial burden.

That is not the right decision for a program that's supposed to be the 'low-cost competition'.

FIRST is still great, but if they continue to make misguided decisions and hope everyone will just blindly swallow them to stay with FIRST, they are mistaken. We all love FIRST, but we all have other assets and the like to look after. And in the end, the decisions we make will be for our students, for their inspiration.

I'll still be involved with volunteering and being involved at FTC events, but I really can't put my heart behind this decision for new kits.

[Lowfategg]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

You can always try www.vexlabs.com. They have a great forum and questions usually get answered extremely fast.

I'm hoping a team will step up and make a forum like CD deticated to FTC. There are around 800 teams (I think) for FTC now, it would be nice to have another forum. Also a bluealliance or SOAP (video archiving) for FTC would be nice as well. I don't have the skill or time to do this =S.

Its still to early to do anything yet but me and basicxman have been talking about this on the vex forum.

[Rick]

It is a good thing they are starting to tell us about the expensive kit now. Time to fundraise!

I hope with the new kit, the tournament gets altered. Regtangular field, teams on both sides of the field rather than on 2 joined sides. More FRC-like. It is so hard to see the action on an FTC field.

FTC is still an in-expensive option for competing. $1k is still much less than starting up an FRC team. FTC is in-expensive, but VEX is now the "value" competition.

[Ben Mitchell]

Right now this is mostly in the realm of theory with not a lot of concrete info to make an informed evaluation.

When this goes official I will explain my thoughts on this in great detail.

It should be interesting.

[basicxman]

FTC Lab is up and running, free for users to sign-up
http://ftc.theroboticsuniverse.com

[Joe G.]

Wow. We just recieved a donation of 3K+ worth of vex parts. Hope we can still use them.

I hope that the system is close to vex, with some upgrades. The new controller sounds nice, but it also sounds like the coding will be much further from FRC than vex's is. The new hardware looks strong, but it also looks like there is more machining involved.

I see what looks like legos in the background of the gear picture. This suggests that FTC will become "open" with materials, as FRC has. Quite honestly, I see this as moving in the opposite direction from what FTC should be: An alternative to FRC for teams without the expertise, tools, or finances avalible to them. The base kit can be great, but if it is completely open, then financially well off teams will have an advantage. It would be like giving enough kitbot parts in the KOP to theoretically build a robot, with the versitality of vex, and then only asking nicely for teams to not CNC a robot from scratch.


I hope that FIRST knows what they're doing here

[yongkimleng]

hmm this sure shows some cause for alarm. The teams we have had already spent more than a decent 5 digit sum on vex parts over the last few years.

Besides the point, a slightly more open relaxed restriction on materials (like metal bars, etc) would be great. Like we would all be limited to using vex electrical system and motor count limit, but we should be able to use our own alu/steel plates and bars. Makes no sense to keep purchasing overpriced metal.

If better motors and gears are provided as an upgrade option, I'm all out for it coz the current inventory does limit ones' possible designs. A wider range of sensors and better rotational encoders would be great too. Remember seeing low cost encoders around USD$30 each .. provides greater resolution too. Another possible thing would be mountable potentiometers and long range (1m?) IR rangefinders.

I hope the WiFi link does support computer communication. How about Ethernet? My embedded x86 platforms are rotting on the shelves.

[Andrew Bates]

Several people have mentioned that this new kit will make it more like the FRC. Now I thought the FRC and the FTC were catering to different groups of people. The FTC is not supposed to be mini FRC. It is meant to be simpler cheaper and just as inspiring. Right now it is. I hope it still is in the future but I am doubtful.

[Ken Delaney 357]

I have a hard time with the wording of the announcement.

"The new kit is a true robotics prototyping platform. It includes a variety of components from sensors, to motors, to metal, that represent current technology. This is not a toy."

Not a toy? Is this a bash on Vex? Last I checked VEX has motors, sensors and metal. They may not be the most complex but I believe this to keep the cost down. Are you saying that I have not been doing any engineering for the last three years and instead have been playing with toys?

"Stronger metal allows teams to build robots that can withstand a lot of abuse - consistent with real world applications" Why is it that we abuse our robots? In the FRC I have seen to many robots become "defensive" by smashing into other robots. Where is the engineering in being a driving brick? I like the fact that Vex does not have the power to become this robot.

I find this announcement lacking in gracious professionalism and off the mark of FIRST's mission.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by StarGazer

...or it could be that I am a regular forum member who didn't want my name on the post

So it could be that you violated CD forum rules by creating an alias account, just so you could scoop the FTC official announcement. GP at it's finest.

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

So it could be that you violated CD forum rules by creating an alias account, just so you could scoop the FTC official announcement. GP at it's finest.

I agree about violating CD rules about creating an alias account, however, the APs were told we could make an announcement to all of our teams on Thursday, and that the official announcement would be made next week. So I don't think this was any kind of scoop, really.

[MentorDanK]

First of all I really like the First organization and competition format. They stand for a the right stuff. I don't want to be too judgemental until I hear more about the new fomat. BUT,

I agree with the concerns of additional costs and time requirements of students that are already taxed with school work. We had a constant problem getting students to build meetings because of other commitments. Many just don't have the time to commit to an FRC type format.

In a time of school budgets that are being reduced the cost of the new new format will discourage schools from getting involved. Also in our area many students are being put into portable class rooms with no access to any special power tools. That was one of the attactive features of the Vex format. We had 2 teams design and build there robots using minimal power tools, in a portable class room.

For several years the company that sponsors my FTC teams sponsored an FRC team. Because of the expense, the dificulty of getting a facility with the proper tool, space requirements and mulitple schools to form a single team with enough students, the teams would work for a year or two and then folded. Another problem they had was attracting teachers to sponsor the teams. We only have one teacher willing to stay after school and put in the hours required.
Now the company sponsors 4 teams from 2 schools and was planning on expanding to 1-2 more schools next year. With the added expense of the new format they may only have funding for 1 team for each of the existing 2 schools. I'm sure that our sponsors will step back and take a hard look at supporting the Vex run competition. Its just sounds like more bang for the buck.

Something that I have not seen any comments about was team size. In the new format will the team size still be restricted to 10. I would hope that it would increase to 20 because the tasks will be more involved.

I think that the improvements in sensor and gears would be nice, but I'm not sure they will be worth the cost.

[MentorDanK]

First of all I really like the First organization and competition format. They stand for a the right stuff. I don't want to be too judgemental until I hear more about the new fomat. BUT,

I agree with the concerns of additional costs and time requirements of students that are already taxed with school work. We had a constant problem getting students to build meetings because of other commitments. Many just don't have the time to commit to an FRC type format.

In a time of school budgets that are being reduced the cost of the new new format will discourage schools from getting involved. Also in our area many students are being put into portable class rooms with no access to any special power tools. That was one of the attactive features of the Vex format. We had 2 teams design and build there robots using minimal power tools, in a portable class room.

For several years the company that sponsors my FTC teams sponsored an FRC team. Because of the expense, the dificulty of getting a facility with the proper tool, space requirements and mulitple schools to form a single team with enough students, the teams would work for a year or two and then folded. Another problem they had was attracting teachers to sponsor the teams. We only have one teacher willing to stay after school and put in the hours required.

Now the company sponsors 4 teams from 2 schools and was planning on expanding to 1-2 more schools next year. With the added expense of the new format they may only have funding for 1 team for each of the existing 2 schools. I'm sure that our sponsors will step back and take a hard look at supporting the Vex run competition. Its just sounds like more bang for the buck.

Something that I have not seen any comments about was team size. In the new format will the team size still be restricted to 10. I would hope that it would increase to 20 because the tasks will be more involved.

I think that the improvements in sensor and gears would be nice, but I'm not sure they will be worth the cost.

[GaryVoshol]

OK, I withdraw my comments about "scooping" a FIRST official announcement. But I still wonder, if StarGazer had permission to publicize it, why a surrogate account was needed.

FIRST did this a couple years ago with FLL, switching from RCX to NXT (which was promted by the LEGO Corp decision to change controllers). At that time a transition period was implemented, allowing either controller to be used. Teams and schools that had a significant investment in LEGO parts based on the RCX were allowed to continue using it. In fact, a point bonus was given to RCX users the last two years in recognition of the NXT's superior capabilities.

Will there be any transition period in FTC so that either VEX or the new components can be used?